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[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Literally millions of people have died from the jab.

Literally thousands have died of adverse events from the vaccine. Literally millions have been saved.

[–]iamonlyoneman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The jab does not work. Studies showing it do, are gamed - beginning with the initial studies to gain (emergency) approvals.

If we survive as a species all the variants the boosties are creating, and if the history is allowed to be written, you will remember I told you so.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

The jab does not work.

Read the link. Yes it does.

Studies showing it do, are gamed

Link me to the study showing this then.

[–]monkeymagic 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

you are an abominable piece of shit. your presence here on said it is some of the most disrespectful horse shit i’ve ever put up with on any site, including reddit.

[–]Entropick 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

seconded!!!!

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Read the link. Yes it does.

Did you actually manage to read the entire paper without noticing that it is a model???

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can't find alternative universe, and have everything the same except that they don't vaccinate people, and compare actual deaths.

Obviously you need to estimate deaths that would have happened without vaccination.

Come on man, rent a clue.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Come on man, rent a clue.

Right back at ya.

You can't take a model as proof or even as evidence that vaccination saved lives. The most you can say is if the assumptions of the model are accurate then maybe the predictions might be useful. Ultimately all model are predictions, not facts, and often they aren't even testable, which makes them just a story.

We know the model is not a good fit for reality. There are a ton of parameters that they can tweak to get any result they want (always a bad sign but sometimes unavoidable). There is no good justification given for many of those parameters, a sign of a model tweaked to get a specific result.

And where there are obvious errors, the errors all point in one direction (exaggerating lives saved by vaccination):

  • It severely overstates the risk of dying from Covid for the unvaxxed, by a factor of at least ten times.
  • It overstates the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing reinfection.
  • It overstates the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission.
  • It completely ignores the high risk of severe and serious vaccine harm.

Climate models use hindcasting as a crude sanity check that the model is at least plausible. I see no sign that the people who wrote this paper bothered with anything similar.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can't take a model as proof or even as evidence that vaccination saved lives.

Of course you can.

Moreover that's the only way you could do it.

Ultimately all model are predictions,

This model isn't a prediction is it?

There are a ton of parameters that they can tweak to get any result they want

No, the parameters are tweaked to match reality.

It severely overstates the risk of dying from Covid for the unvaxxed, by a factor of at least ten times.

Citation needed

It overstates the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing reinfection.

Citation needed

It overstates the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission.

Citation needed

It completely ignores the high risk of severe and serious vaccine harm.

No it doesn't. The model is fitted to excess deaths. Deaths caused by the vaccine would be accounted for.

Climate models use hindcasting as a crude sanity check that the model is at least plausible.

True.

I see no sign that the people who wrote this paper bothered with anything similar.

Did you read the appendix?

https://www.thelancet.com/cms/10.1016/S1473-3099(22)00320-6/attachment/8390f23d-ef7c-4108-b831-ffb5f3c411fb/mmc1.pdf

[–]SeethingPeasant 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Actually there's no real proof anyone has been saved by the vaccine

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What's wrong with the paper I linked?

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What's wrong with the paper I linked?

The paper you linked to says:

"A mathematical model of COVID-19 transmission and vaccination was separately fit to reported COVID-19 mortality and all-cause excess mortality in 185 countries and territories."

This is not a study of actual lives saved. It's a model. Modelling proves absolutely nothing. It's a fairy tale and pure junk science.

From the paper:

(Disclaimer on that last paper: the authors quote a hazard ratio for this, which suggests to me they had no fucking clue what they were doing and just pushed buttons on their stats software until they got a number that they liked. Hazard ratios are very hard to interpret correctly even for experts but in this case the risk of hospitalisation from delta and alpha are clearly almost identical.)

Modelling Delta as almost fifty percent more severe than earlier strains is going to massively overestimate the unvaccinated deaths according to this model. This alone is enough to condemn it as junk science.

The paper is biased. It models immune escape from previous infection, but does not model vaccine escape. It even states: "If immune escape was higher than we assumed, more of the population would have been susceptible to re-infection and consequently more deaths from COVID-19 could have been averted by vaccination" which is fair enough but it makes no mention of the reverse scenario: if vaccine escape was included more vaccinated people would be susceptible to re-infection and consequently fewer deaths would be averted by vaccination.

Edit: oops, I made a mistake, the model does seemingly allow for breakthough infections of vaccinated people. So that's one criticism removed.

The paper uses completely bogus estimates of the IFR (infection fatality rate): 0.23% for countries with mostly younger people, and 1.15% for countries with more elderly people. These numbers, especially the second, are ludicrously high, and consequently they inflate the number of Covid deaths drastically.

In 2020, the WHO published a peer-reviewed estimate of Covid’s overall IFR of about 0.23% globally. Soon afterwards another peer-reviewed study revised that figure downward to about 0.15% globally. The latest research from John Ioannidis et al finds a global IFR of 0.03% and 0.07% for the 0-59 and 0-69 age groups.

There is absolutely no justification for an overall IFR of 1.15% unless you're going to assume that half the population is over 70. I would say that more realistic numbers are about 0.05 for countries with "young" populations and 0.1 for those with "old" populations.

Quoting the paper:

  • "we assume that all vaccinated individuals have a 50% reduction in infectiousness for breakthrough infections" -- there's no good evidence for this assumption, or indeed even a good reason for it. In reality, breakthrough infections are just as infectious as non-breakthrough ones.

  • "To simplify the model parameterisation, in both epidemics we assume a constant vaccine efficacy of 60% against infection and 90% against disease" -- both numbers are bogus. Vaccine efficacy against infection is not constant: it is typically negative for a week or two after vaccination due to immune suppression, then rises to possibly something as high as 40 or 50% for perhaps as long as 30 or 40 days, then falls to zero again. Efficacy against disease is more or less zero: asymptomatic infections are rare.

  • That statement is then contradicted by their Supplementary Table 1, where they use different vaccine efficacies according to vaccine type. The paper doesn't explain the contradiction.

  • "The standard deviation σ can be expressed as (mathematical formula) where r is the dispersion parameter and assumed to be equal to 7" (emphasis added). Why seven? Why not six, or eight? Or three? Or fifteen?

  • "Additionally, the total number of deaths related to the epidemic is assumed to be described by the Negative Binomial distribution with a dispersion parameter of 40." The Negative Binomial distribution is the standard distribution used for modelling epidemics (which doesn't mean it is necessarily a good model, only that it is the standard, conventional choice that everyone uses) but what's the justification for the choice of 40? Why not 39, or 41, or 20, or 80?

The point is, all of these parameters can be varied, and even if you don't like my numbers, the numbers used in the model aren't god-given, they're just numbers the modellers chose. They could have chosen different numbers. This is an exercise in mathematical modelling and by choosing values for the parameters they can get any result they like.

Want to prove that vaccination saved millions? Choose this model and this set of parameters. Want to prove the opposite? Tweak the model and/or the parameters. Since both the model and the parameter values are made up, you can choose anything that looks plausible.

CC u/SeethingPeasant

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is not a study of actual lives saved. It's a model.

FFS.

Please link to your estimate that didn't use modelling, and will talk about which one makes better estimates.

Modelling proves absolutely nothing.

I take it you don't fly in aeroplanes, enter large buildings or cross bridges?

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Please link to your estimate that didn't use modelling, and will talk about which one makes better estimates.

I don't need to have an alternate model in order to critique your model.

But for what it's worth, mine would be much, much simpler (in fact too simple):

  • With an IFR of about 0.07, there will be about 1 death per approximately 1428 infections. So to prevent one death, you need to vaccinate 141×1428 = 201348 people.
  • Pfizer's own testing suggests 1 in 800 people will have a serious or severe adverse reaction. Let's say that only 1 in 100 of those are fatal. So to prevent one Covid death, we vaccinate 201348 people, of whom 251 will have a severe adverse reaction, and two will die.

I think that's much more plausible than "saved millions of lives" nonsense. If so many lives have been saved, why are excess deaths so high compared to pre-pandemic averages?

I take it you don't fly in aeroplanes, enter large buildings or cross bridges?

All of those things can be accurate tested in model simulations, and by actually building the bridge or flying the plane.

The fact that the plane actually does fly proves that the model used is a good fit to reality. If a plane crashes, aircraft builders don't say "But according to our model, the plane couldn't have crashed, so you're spreading disinformation about aircraft, you're an anti-planer conspiracy theorist" like vaxists do to reports of excess death and vaccine adverse effects.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't need to have an alternate model in order to critique your model.

You didn't critique my model. You said that the paper I linked to used modelling.

While that's true, it's not a critique.

But for what it's worth, mine would be much, much simpler (in fact too simple):

With an IFR of about 0.07, there will be about 1 death per approximately 1428 infections.

Do you mean with an IFR of 0.07%?

An IFR of 0.07 would be 100 deaths per approximately 1428 infections.

It depends a lot on who. The IFR for an 80 year old is about 8%. For a 40 year old, it's only 0.18%.

0.07% is fair for people in their early 30s or younger. Source

Overall the IFR is about 1% or 2%. Source, so a better estimate to prevent one death would be to vaccinate

So to prevent one death, you need to vaccinate 141×1428 = 201348 people.

To stop 1428 infections you reckon you need to vaccinate 141 times that?

Why?

Pfizer's own testing suggests 1 in 800 people will have a serious or severe adverse reaction. Let's say that only 1 in 100 of those are fatal.

It might be nearer 1 in 10. This paper suggests 302 deaths from adverse events from 14.6 million doses for Pfizer.

If so many lives have been saved, why are excess deaths so high compared to pre-pandemic averages?

Covid killing people, mostly.

All of those things can be accurate tested in model simulations

I would have thought so. But you claim that Modelling proves absolutely nothing. It's a fairy tale and pure junk science.

The fact that the plane actually does fly proves that the model used is a good fit to reality.

The maintenance of the plane's parts are calculated by modelling. It's not that it flies, it's that you appear to trust the modelling.

If a plane crashes, aircraft builders don't say "But according to our model, the plane couldn't have crashed, so you're spreading disinformation about aircraft, you're an anti-planer conspiracy theorist"

If a part fails before it is modelled to fail, the manufacturers will absolutely look for what was wrong with the part, not the model.

But Vaccines haven't crashed. As evidenced by the millions of lives saved.