Germaine Greer on rape and consent

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[–]sdl5 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry, but as a boomer left lib woman raised deep within the cultural norm of Germaine herself:

Her takes are fraught with conflation, new victims narrative creation, bizarre extreme umbrellas, and just flat false inclusions.

The subtle to direct pressure dynamics of a private intimate relationship, particularly one of cohabitation and monogamous status, is just the facts of human sexual misalignments combined with the stresses of daily life and various resentments or other difficulties.

Are there abusive, dangerous, controlling relationships? Of course.

Are they somehow common or happen in otherwise average intimate couples? HELL NO.

And- tbqh - it has seems to me that the entire feminist crowd, and PARTICULARLY the leaders, have been stretching and adding to the repertoire of supposed oppressive male ANYTHING relating to females for some time.

Because actual equal footing and treatment of us being the common norm in westernized countries means THEY are out of a strong role in society, a lucrative series of gigs, and even relevance to newer generations....

She is far past her on the shelf date.

Stop giving airtime or validity to this divisive vision of humans and the victim mentality forced on all women tripe from the feminists!

[–]kingsmegLiberté, égalité, fraternité 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Everything she said was completely irrelevant to the Russell Brand accusations. Brand is a celebrity and slept with hundreds of women, who were jumping into his bed because of his celebrity status. If any of them didn't want to have sex with him, they could refrain from jumping into bed with him. He wasn't a Cosby drugging them, nor was he a Weinstein with power over their careers. They were groupies.

Any case where they accuse him years later and demand money or else they'll write a book is indeed criminal, specifically criminal extortion, by the woman.

Greer's description of marital rape is off the wall. So I've been raped dozens of times when I wasn't really feeling it?

[–]ageingrockstar[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If any of them didn't want to have sex with him, they could refrain from jumping into bed with him.

What's being alleged is that the four sexual relationships all started with consensual sex but there were following sexual engagements between Brand and his accusers that were non- consensual. (This is what I understand from listening to Greenwald's coverage of the story, which included clips of the accusations, but I haven't watched the actual primary source itself.)

Thus yes, what Greer is saying about the problematic nature of 'consent' is highly relevant, in my view. Inside an established relationship, there can be sexual engagements where the woman wasn't 'feeling it' to use your expression, or further along from that, quite actively didn't want it. This is 'bad sex' to use Greer's terminology but is it necessarily 'rape' ? That's the question she's putting. Increasingly we are told that everything hinges on 'consent' and that it must be actively ascertained in every sexual encounter. And if it wasn't obtained then it is rape. That's what this Brand case is going to hinge on, and so no, I think Greer's treatment of the question of consent is directly relevant.

[–]kingsmegLiberté, égalité, fraternité 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

First of all, no that was not alleged in all 4 incidents, only 1. The one that actually accused him of rape (except she actually didn't, and is refusing to make the accusation now). The other 3 did not. One claimed to have had consensual sex with him when she was 16, which is legal in UK, and that he checked her age to make sure it was legal, but that he 'should have known better', because 16 is too young (according to her older self). If that is rape, then the word has lost all meaning.

And for the one who accused him of rape, she still came to his house, went into his bedroom, and got into bed with him. They weren't cohabiting and he didn't go to her house. This is also the women who, per Brand's lawyer, tried to shake him down for money, and when he refused to pay, she wrote her 'tell-all' book about the encounter, using a different name for Brand. Under the circumstances, I don't think her claim is credible.

The question becomes: is it 'rape' if you are in the act itself, and the woman changes her mind in between strokes and decides she no longer consents, but doesn't tell the man? Some would argue that this is rape, Greer certainly would. A jury would not, IMHO. Even if she does say "No" or "Stop", a lot of people still wouldn't call it 'rape' if the man continued. It would take extraordinary self-control for the average man to stop in those circumstances, unless the woman looked to be in real, visible distress. Greer is saying no, her (always her, never him) just not being in the mood anymore makes it non-consensual, and therefore rape. That would diminish the word 'rape' and the legal procedure surrounding rape if this were accepted as rape. As I said, if this is rape, then I have been raped many times.

[–]ageingrockstar[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

First of all, no that was not alleged in all 4 incidents, only 1.

Yes, sorry, you are right here and it's an important point.

The question becomes: is it 'rape' if you are in the act itself, and the woman changes her mind in between strokes and decides she no longer consents, but doesn't tell the man? Some would argue that this is rape, Greer certainly would.

Greer certainly wouldn't. In fact, she talks about this exact scenario in the video I submitted. The timestamp at 4:18 takes you to the interviewer's question and then Greer's answer which starts with a discussion of that exact scenario.

Greer is saying no, her (always her, never him) just not being in the mood anymore makes it non-consensual, and therefore rape.

Again, she says the opposite of this.

It seems to me that you don't properly understand what Greer is saying and what her points are and don't appreciate that they seem to be in broad concordance with yours (not saying in total concordance). I'm also wondering, because this is mostly a US American forum, if you are well acquainted with her work? She's very well known in the UK and Australia but perhaps not so well known in the US. In my view, (and in the view of many women, just look at the comments under videos on youtube featuring her where comments are allowed), she is a highly intelligent commentator, who has been thinking and talking about these matters for virtually her whole life and has a highly independent viewpoint. To label her as "far past her on the shelf date" (as another commenter did here), dismisses one of the best speakers on these topics, even if you don't agree with all of her views (as I don't, although I agree with many).

[–]kingsmegLiberté, égalité, fraternité 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would have to watch it again to answer this. I was in the hospital this morning and in between pokings and proddings I tried to make it through the video. No I'm not familiar with her work, but she gave me a very bad vibe of Victorian sexuality where a woman was supposed to lie back, close her eyes, and think of the Queen. In fact, libido is quite evenly matched between men and women. The main difference is that men generally can't perform when they're not aroused. There's another very important evolutionary difference that I won't go into here.

[–]ageingrockstar[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry about your health travails.

And yeah, it's important to understand what Greer is saying rather than lump her in with 'feminists' (a label she doesn't identify with; I've heard her say she is a female, not a feminist). She's also from a different stream to US feminism, as I understand it. She's very much in a British tradition. She's criticised the #metoo movement; she's criticised women overly portraying themselves as victims; she's not an 'equality feminist' (doesn't want equality), she's much more of a liberation feminist. Also, she's not a 'man hater'. She published a book about male beauty (that then got her attacked for being a pedophile, because it focused quite a lot on male teenage beauty, but from a considered art history viewpoint). Her views are nuanced and individually arrived at by her own thought processes; she's not slip-streaming anyone or following any particular 'movement'. She also happens to be a celebrated Shakespearean scholar (her profession has been teaching literature).

[–]sdl5 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

💯

[–]MeganDelacroix🤡🌎 detainee 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

“At this point, you think, what the hell are you saying? That something that leaves no sign, no injury, nothing, is more damaging to women than seeing your best friend blown up by an IED is to a veteran?”

Greer makes a few good points, but others are simply silly, and detract from them. Rape trauma can corrupt something most people consider essential to human happiness: love and physical touch. Veterans may choose to join the police when they come home, but it isn't expected, and no one pretends walking patrol is essential in the same way.

Second, she's not only dismissive of the effects on the victim, but also the effects on the rapist. Deliberate rape is by definition sadistic torture: the infliction of pain on another person for pleasure. Committing crimes like this changes a person's mental makeup, often permanently. Her bland proposal of community service ignores the fact that this might put the community at risk.

Third, she fails entirely to address the social aspect. Veterans are admired; rape victims are not. In some Islamic societies they're locked up by the authorities, because reporting a rape is treated as an admission of unlawful fornication, or they're murdered by their own parents or siblings to expunge the perceived dishonor to the family. But this isn't as alien to the modern West as we might like to pretend, because in almost all societies throughout history, promiscuity, consensual or otherwise, is considered detrimental to a woman's worth and desirability. This is based in hardwired biological imperatives and will not change anytime soon, despite the liberal conviction that utopia is just around the corner.

[–]ageingrockstar[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Deliberate rape is by definition sadistic torture: the infliction of pain on another person for pleasure.

Greer is talking about rape as it is defined in Western law. It is not defined by violence, rather it is defined as 'non-consensual' sex. The vast majority of such incidents are not violent, not sadistic, not inflicted by an attacking stranger. They are experienced by the woman as 'bad sex' as Greer puts it, mostly within relationships, e.g. the husband who forces himself on the wife. (My grandmother, for instance, would sit on the verandah at night waiting for my grandfather to fall asleep, to avoid unwanted sex and more pregnancies with him.) So this is undesired sexual intercourse, which mostly doesn't involve pain, certainly not the deliberate infliction of pain (with a sadistic element) as you put it. There are sexual assaults which are sadistic, of course there are, but they are a small subset of what, by the law, is considered rape. Men mostly don't push themselves on women for sadistic reasons, they push themselves on women for sexual gratification.

[–]MeganDelacroix🤡🌎 detainee 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't intend to include everything considered rape today in my second objection, and I used the word "deliberate," well, deliberately. I can see how it might be confusing because my first and third objections were more generally applicable, and of course you're correct about the broad scope of the legal definition.

But as Greer herself offers her own unequivocally violent rape as an example, if you take issue with my unintentional conflation, you should take greater issue with hers.

[–]ageingrockstar[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is a 12 minute interview that Germaine did on Australian TV 5 years ago, after she had put out a book called On Rape.

One of the main things that Germaine talks about in this interview is the problematic question of 'consent' and the weakness of hinging the whole question of whether a sexual assault took place on the idea of 'consent'.

Posting it now because I think the question of consent will be a crucial focus in the recent charges brought against Russell Brand and I think Germaine has some very insightful and well considered things to say about the idea in general (plus intelligent observations on other aspects of how we deal with allegations of sexual assault).

[–]ageingrockstar[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Here also is some other reportage about what she said on rape at that time :

Feminist author Germaine Greer has sparked widespread condemnation for saying most rapes did not involve any injury and were “just lazy, just careless, just insensitive”.

The 79-year-old also called for an overhaul of the criminal justice system, saying rape should be punishable by 200 hours of community service instead of jail.

Ms Greer made the controversial comments on Wednesday at the Hay Festival, an annual literature event in Wales.

The Female Eunuch author said the “official position” that 70 per cent of rape victims suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder in comparison with 20 per cent of military veterans was ridiculous.

“At this point, you think, what the hell are you saying? That something that leaves no sign, no injury, nothing, is more damaging to women than seeing your best friend blown up by an IED is to a veteran?” she reportedly said.

Ms Greer also said she understands the crime, having been raped as a teenager.

“I was violently raped days before my 19th birthday. I was beaten half-unconscious,” she reportedly told the audience as she argued that a rape victim’s life wasn’t “destroyed”.

“We haven’t been destroyed, we’ve been bloody annoyed, is what we’ve been. I reckon 200 hours of community service will do… would do me. I suggested a long time ago that maybe a little tattoo would be a good thing. Maybe an ‘R’ on your hand. I’d prefer it on your cheek."

The second-wave feminist targeted the legal treatment of those who bring rape allegations before a courtroom.

“This is a mess, it’s a big mess. And it’s getting us worse than nowhere. Because it’s one thing to be raped, but it’s another thing to try to get the person who outraged you brought to justice and then be totally discredited," she said. “That humiliation must be even worse than rape.”

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/germaine-greer-most-rape-is-just-bad-sex/5ts7blj7x

[–]ageingrockstar[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Adding on again, I went and tried to find actual audio / video of Germaines address at the Hay Festival that is reported on above. But I couldn't find it freely available. What I did find is a page on the official Hay Festival website for her address but where you have to pay to get access to the recording. However there's a good summary of her speech also on that page, and it gives perhaps a better idea of what she talked about than the reportage I quoted above.

Germaine Greer On Rape

Hay Festival 2018, Wednesday 30 May 2018

“Centuries of writing and thinking about rape – as inflicted by men on women – have got us nowhere. There are those who, like Quentin Tarantino, think it is one of the most violent crimes in the world, and others for whom it is simply what happens when a woman endures sex she doesn’t want. Bestial or banal, a proven rape may carry a prison sentence of many years, even life, but very few rapes ever find their way into a court of law. The prosecution of a selected minority of cases seldom results in a conviction. The crucial issue is that of consent, which is thought by some to be easy to establish and by others as impossible. Rape statistics remain intractable. Again and again crime surveys tell us that one woman in five will experience sexual violence. Despite all efforts to root sexual assault out of workplaces and colleges, predatory individuals still inflict lasting damage with apparent impunity. The only result of desperate attempts to apportion blame and enact chastisement has been an erosion of the civil rights of the accused. Sexual assault does not diminish; relations between the sexes do not improve; litigation balloons. There has to be a better way.”

https://www.hayfestival.com/p-13944-germaine-greer.aspx