The Satanic Temple challenges new Texas abortion law citing religious freedom

submitted by carn0ld03 from (khou.com)

all 70 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]MagicMike 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Always knew the Demonrats stood with Satan.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The Church of Satan is basically a nicer form of Christianity. It's commonly assumed to be the same as devil worship but that's a different thing.

[–]Noam_Chomsky 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Satanists believe in bodily autonomy.

Jk.

[–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Absolutely do believe in bodily autonomy.

It's the third of their seven fundamental tenets:

I) One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II) The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III) One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
IV) The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V) Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI) People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII) Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

[–]Noam_Chomsky 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Absolutely do believe in bodily autonomy.

It's the third of their seven fundamental tenets:

Do satanists apply the bodily autonomy principle to newborns?

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I imagine so. Why not?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (58 children)

It's perfect - because we need to remind Texans and the Supreme Court OF THE FUCKING NECESSITY OF THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!

(Roe vs Wade should have protected women from "Christian" extremists.)

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

If pressed, most of them say their religion is "just a joke" like it's some sort of satire. Fuck them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

What's worse - a joke religion - or the destruction of women's rights? (A rhetorical question.)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

So, its not a religion, and it has no religious rights?

Women should not be free to kill their unborn children.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Seems you'e avoiding the discussion about when life begins, and other important reasons women have for the control over their own reproductive rights.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Life begins upon healthy conception. A fertilized egg is the first stage of a humans life. Recreational abortion is morally repugnant. Medical abortion can save lives and should never be illegal. If you want to talk about rape babies, I'll show you pro-lifers who ARE rape babies. Why are they pro-life? Maybe because being pro-life is the healthy thing to do if you....SUPPORT LIFE.

I don't want control over their reproductive rights. I want them to be careful with who they fuck, and to raise their children with pride and honor. If they aren't able to do those things, there are plenty of people who are willing to step in to help them with their irresponsibility. My family being one of them. What's that old joke atheists make about Christians? "They care about the child when its unborn, but the second it is born, they don't care."

My family fosters and adopts. We aren't the only ones. The foster care system, which has been admistrated by Democrats in my home state for years, is shite. Kids literally go missing under their care. So, good Christians in my state came together to make an organization to give these kids a home. There are hundreds of us, and more join every year. We don't want to control who you fuck, or if you even should give a shit about your kid. We do want to stop you from murdering your little human seedling. If it was cared for, it would grow up to be better than you.

Also, the GOVCORP doesn't care for your reproductive rights. How many blacks and Natives have been made infertile thanks to their birth control programs back in the day? How many people have been made infertile due to misdiagnosis? Is there legal recourse for these people?

No, they don't give a shit. They just want humans to work their jobs, pay their taxes, and vote red or blue.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The Church of Satan is a better version of Christianity. It's not so much a joke as a protest

Cc: u/Earendil

Although specifically for you socks, and this is controversial, but I'm not sure women's rights has ever been anything more than a ploy to pay people half as much and to have an easily influenced voting bloc.

It hasn't really been a good thing if you think about it. I mean I like having women to be able to tell how to vote, don't get me wrong, and I don't want them mistreated, but overall equal rights has been kinda a disaster.

Maybe it's just my recent adoption of Ferenginar ideology.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I don't really know what to say to you, socks, or actuallynot. You guys are bizarre. I feel like I'm going to meet folks like you in the Mad Max world that is to come

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

If we're bizarre, who are the people you talk with much of the time? (You don't have to answer that, but seriously, the three of us are about as vanilla [relatively common] as you'll ever meet, with the possible exception of Muskrat today, along with his many girlfriends, but that's another topic.) Chillax.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Vanilla? Do you always use modern lingo? Have you ever had an original thought?

I live a normal life where I work with family and friends. I speak to remarkable individuals far more often than I speak to you, or the other bizarros on this site. u/AmericanMuskrat is FAR more normal than you, but still a bizarre dude.

You should go back to Reddit. Quit astroturfing here.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks... I think.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're a weakling. Stop being so offended by strangers.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not offended. Quit astroturfing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There are so many other comments on Saidit. Why not read and reply those? (I am absolutely not astroturfing anything.) Block my posts, because you're always going through my post history and freaking out. Save us both the hassle of dealing with one another (especially because you cannot have a normal conversation).

[–]Noam_Chomsky 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Roe vs Wade should have protected women from "Christian" extremists.

Wrong again.

The legalization of abortion was an covert eugenic program.

Abortion clinics are often located in minority neighborhoods.

https://rtl.org/multicultural-outreach/black-abortion-statistics/

33.6% of all abortions in the U.S. in 2016 were performed on Black women, however, only about 13.4% of the total population is Black.

The most dangerous period of a black person's life is in the womb.

Edit:

For every 1,000 live births, non-Hispanic Black women had 335 abortions. Non-Hispanic White women had 110 abortions per 1,000 live births.

[–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The most dangerous period of a black person's life is in the womb.

That's true of everyone. Most pregnancies end in miscarriage.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think that's the point he was making, but you're right and it's not talked about openly a lot but it's actually common advice for women not to tell anyone they're pregnant for the first 20 weeks because miscarriages are common.

Sorry, I didn't mean to send you 3 messages in a single thread, just kinda happened.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

covert eugenic program.

Any evidence of this from reliable sources? (I seriously doubt it.)

Abortion clinics are often located in minority neighborhoods

Poor and middle class people tend to live in these areas, where the clinics are needed most. (Numerous poor and middle-class people are not minorities.) Your reference is to blacks, which is only one of the minority groups.

For every 1,000 live births...

Is 'Right to Life of Michigan' heavily biased and devoted to spreading misinformation and propaganda because Church groups fund them to do just that? (An easy answer to this.)

I personally think abortions should not be permitted after the first trimester, because higher brain structures appear between weeks 12 and 16 (and consciousness by week 24). Texas and the Supreme Court are however playing politics with Roe v Wade (and with women's lives and rights), and there will be more attempts to overturn R v W with Supreme Court decisions that will reduce the rights of women beyond the points previously protected by R v W. It's sickening.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I personally think abortions should not be permitted after the first trimester, because higher brain structures appear between weeks 12 and 16 (and consciousness by week 24).

This is the sensible position that most Americans agree with.

(and with women's lives and rights),

This is the crux of that matter. Horrific punishment of rape victims by forcing them to bring the rapists spawn to term. And breeding more rapists, if there's a genetic component to the propensity to rape.

But Texas republicans' hate is rising against women. Probably related to there being one in the second highest office in the land. Humans have history on this. The witch trials peaked when Elizabeth I was on the English throne.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Indeed - I wish more voters would appreciate the history of religious extremism, and the potential outcomes of state challenges to Roe v Wade, which is a form of class warfare, religious warfare, and male dominance. I think women can be trusted to look after their own bodies, especially in the first trimester, when they should have safe options for themselves. If I remember correctly, getting an abortion - and especially an unsafe coat-hanger abortion - reduces a woman's potential for pregnancies thereafter. So the "Christian" argument that women will be irresponsible because they're so horny won't work. Planned Parenthood - in states that support it - helps women understand the risks of pregnancy. Do churches have a form of Planned Parenthood? Not really.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Roe vs Wade is dead.

The SCOTUS had allowed a law designed to violate it stand.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep - now there's a legal precedent to violate R v W.

[–]Noam_Chomsky 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Any evidence of this from reliable sources? (I seriously doubt it.)

Maafa 21 - Black Genocide in 21st Century America - full documentary

Planned Parenthood acknowledges Margaret Sanger's 'racist legacy', continues abortions | EWTN News

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Good ol' youtube eh?

What a scholarly source.

Is any of this written down?

[–]Noam_Chomsky 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What a scholarly source.

Attacking the source, and not the info?

A common shill tactic.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I realise that it's not a sound refutation.

But I'm still not watching YouTube videos for scholarly information. The signal to noise ratio is to low to expect it to be worthwhile.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks again for the sources. The problems /u/ActuallyNot addresses are the apparent biases and lack of broader assessments of the opinions discussed in those videos. Not that opinions and historical information used in those videos aren't useful or informative, but that there is balance of discussion, or careful survey of alternative information, or no peer review assessment of the source material by a broader selection of society. For example, the rights of the mother are rarely considered by some of these religious groups, and a peer discussion would help address that problem. I see that the sources for the videos are these:

https://www.liveaction.org/

http://www.maafa21.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Dynamics_Inc.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCijDos-LUTh9RQvSCMQqN6Q

All of these are religious anti-abortion groups that are obviously biased, sourcing only the points of evidence that will support their causes, without a balanced assessment. That said, Maafa 21 is very interesting and and very helpful for a discussion about the background of Roe v Wade. One can however argue that - before Roe v Wade - poor and middle-class Americans were already injured and losing their lives with illegal and abusive back alley methods of abortion. I am not a Catholic, but I very much appreciate their approaches to saving lives, families &c. I also value the potential for the Church to help with today's moral problems. I would never support, however, legislation for everyone that would restrict their activities to the standards of Church dogma. Founding Fathers of the US Constitution and subsequent legal experts appreciated the problems that would arise from this kind of legislation, as they had seen these problems as the causes of European wars.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for these sources. I'll have a look.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah. The Satanic Temple have been an important force for good in the battle to maintain separation between church and state.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL - good point.

Well - if they do manage to appropriately challenge the new law - they will have been an "important force for good", according to many. (Part of the problem - I'd argue - is extremism in religion, regardless of one's faith.)

[–]Zapped 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Poor analogy. The Bible says "though shalt not murder" and we have laws against murder. These things are not mutually exclusive.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

It's not an analogy of church and state, it's the legal precident to AVOID a church and state analogy. The Bible isn't part of the discussion, if we want to consider the law, democracy, and Roe v. Wade. Yes, there are laws against murder, and Roe v Wade was agreed upon for a Federal law that legalized abortion, which is for the benefit of the living. If "life begins at conception", or with a beating heard, or with the first brain activity, or at the end of the 1st trimester, Roe v Wade confirmed that none of these definitions of 'life' can be applied to the law regarding abortion. Why separate church and state? Because you cannot legislate morality. You can however legislate criminal activity, which Roe v Wade determined did not apply to many abortions. Who had safe hospital abortions before Roe v Wade? Rich people. Who risked their lives with dodgy methods for illegal abortions? Poor people, and the middle-classes. Don't use a church and state analogy, unless you want to promote theocratic rule. And if you want a theocracy, look at the shitty situations theocracies are in. The vast majority of their constituents are absolutely miserable.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

"Because you cannot legislate morality."

We all know that killing healthy unborn infants is immoral.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Right. But aborting an embryo is not killing an infant.

[–]Zapped 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Honest question here. Would you say that an embryo is 3/5 of a person? I don't know the answer, but I think the heart of this debate is where each person thinks life begins. I used to be totally pro-choice until I became a father. Now, I don't understand how anyone who is a parent can be pro-choice. I agree that a 2 month old embryo is not the same as a 2 month old baby, but it's still life, in my opinion, and I'm non-religious so that doesn't factor into my beliefs.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Would you say that an embryo is 3/5 of a person?

Nope. A collection of cells with no brain is not a fraction of a human.

I don't know the answer, but I think the heart of this debate is where each person thinks life begins.

Agreed.

I used to be totally pro-choice until I became a father. Now, I don't understand how anyone who is a parent can be pro-choice.

Even when the embryo are a rapists genes, and you want to torture a teenager for nine months while she gives her body to carrying someone who violated her?

I agree that a 2 month old embryo is not the same as a 2 month old baby, but it's still life, in my opinion, and I'm non-religious so that doesn't factor into my beliefs.

A bacteria is life.

[–]Zapped 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

A collection of cells with no brain is not a fraction of a human.

Another honest question: why do you think researchers have the 14-day rule when dealing with human embryos?

you want to torture a teenager for nine months while she gives her body to carrying someone who violated her?

No, but again, where does life begin and you allow a murder on top of someone committing a rape?

A bacteria is life.

I guess we should clarify that we are talking about a human life.

I think all of this comes down to the when we think that an embryo or infant or adult is a human life. No bad people in this debate.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Another honest question: why do you think researchers have the 14-day rule when dealing with human embryos?

Ethics committees can get a bit overzealous.

For research purposes iirc you can get 8 or 16 cells. So cell division can occur 3 or 4 times. That was chosen because all the cells are still embryonic stem cells. There's no differentiation between the cells. So augments about whether it's human yet or not can't even begin, because there's no different parts. Just a cell clump.

No, but again, where does life begin and you allow a murder on top of someone committing a rape?

"Murder" is a bit strong for "choosing not to get involved in supporting the life of".

9 million people due from hunger each year. Did those of us who have the resources to feed at least one of them murder them?

But I agree it matters where life begins. Not because some innocent person could ethically be fingered by the state to give of their body to keep a person who they want nothing to do with alive, but because rights must be balanced ... And a clump of cells doesn't have rights.

I guess we should clarify that we are talking about a human life.

Then no. A 2 month old embryo is not human life.

[–]Zapped 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

9 million people due from hunger each year. Did those of us who have the resources to feed at least one of them murder them?

If we took food from them with the intent for them to starve to death, then yes.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then no. A 2 month old embryo is not human life.

I'm not trying to kick a dead horse here, but fuck, it would become human life.

You're a smart guy. I don't think I need to argue with you, I think now you're going to work it out on your own and come to the rather obvious conclusion.

As an aside, pro life has really shitty PR. They never explain it well. They come off sounding backwards and weird, and it frankly looks bad they care the kid is born but then give zero fucks about it.

But what they're doing is giving the kid a chance. A chance to live as you and I are.

Although if you're like me you never asked to be born and you occasionally wish you were dead. But we have that choice.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Right. But aborting an embryo is not killing an infant

I agree with everything you've written until here. That's bullshit, if someone killed you as an embryo you still wouldn't exist. The problem is that it's going to be a life if you don't fucking murder it.

Now, don't get me wrong, although it's morally reprehensible and murder, I actually do believe in pro choice. I'm just okay with killing kids. I mean fuck, really, you should be able to late term abort them until they're 18.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's bullshit, if someone killed you as an embryo you still wouldn't exist.

There's a couple or few hundred million sperm in the ejaculation that fertilised the egg that grew into me. A couple or few hundred million might have grown into people that don't exist.

All "murdered" according to you, simply because they don't now exist.

You should get 200,000,000 life sentences, just for ejaculating?

No?

Then don't sweat about things that are only potentially people: Not all genetic combinations get to exist. The vast majority don't. Worry about people that do exist. Like raped teen girls and neglected or hungry children.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

A tree starts its life as a seed. If you tore out a freshly planted seed that has begun to sprout, you killed an unborn tree. The same goes for embryos and creatures.

You are vile.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A tree starts its life as a seed.

Some people would say that the seed is already living. And that a dead seed won't grow into a tree.

If you tore out a freshly planted seed that has begun to sprout, you killed an unborn tree.

Trees aren't born.

Birth is something only viviparous animals do.

You are vile.

Caring about people more than a few cells isn't vile. It's caring.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You are insufferable.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you think caring about people and about society is vile, you're a sociopath.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You don't care about people or society, you would rather people be free to abort their babies whenever they like. That is opposite of caring for humans.

[–]Zapped 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

You made the analogy that Christian extremism was solely behind anti-abortion laws and that Roe vs Wade was to separate Church and State. Own it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

[–]Zapped 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The analogy between a) Roe vs Wade is a law that separates Church and State and b) a legal ruling that separates Church and State.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I see. That's much clearer. Sorry I misunderstood. I did not see my comments as making this specific analogy. But I'll have a go. First, there is the 1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Next there is Roe v Wade:

One reason it successfully arranged for reproductive freedom is because of the legal requirement of church-state separation, for reasons discussed here.

Thus: Roe v Wade is RELATED TO the law that separates Church and State, becaus Churches would otherwise get politicians to overturn any legislation that offers reproductive freedom.

[–]Zapped 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think we'll have to disagree on this diluted tangent to the main discussion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

have to allow vaccine mandates if not allowing abortions

[–]Tophat123 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Nah. We can instead take a page out of your peoples book and selectively push our bullshit irrespective of what you people say and see how you like it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

are you fighting fire with fire, being a hypocrite because other side is hypocrites?

[–]IkeConn 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Some trolls are just precious.

[–]Zapped 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

What happens when an artificial womb is perfected? Do all unwanted pregnancies get transplanted into those and then adopted out?