LOL WUTWhen our biologically based aversion to incest that helps preserve our species survival is too “ableist” and isn’t “woke” enough.

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[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

That’s why male-female incest gets more disgust than same-sex incest.

Does it?

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

You’re right. Gay incest is seen as worse. But both are bad.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Yeah. Gay incest seems less of a problem due to that, but there is a slippery slope of rationalization from "...well, if gay incest is okay because there won't be a child born of it...then by that logic, opposite-sex incest should be okay as long as they practice safe sex....and by that logic, if the woman takes the pill or the man has a vasectomy, then they should be able to have unprotected sex....and if we're saying unprotected opposite-sex incest is fine, who cares if they use protection?"

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Biologically speaking even if we did allow only gay incest that will never happen, because the straight majority has a built in biological mechanism in place that makes us find our close blood relatives as sexually repulsive in order to promote genetic diversity. ( Google The Westernmarck Effect)

A few countries actually have decriminalized same-sex incest while still making straight incest illegal and they’ve never had to worry about a slippery slope. Turns out you’d have to be quite literally insane and in the running for The Darwin Award if you as a heterosexual are sexually attracted to either your sibling, parent or (god-forbid) child.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I want to believe you, but the stats would worry about Westermarck Effect covering this [it is kind of...conveeeeeeeeeeenient...that we're only seeing this rise of support for incest after incest/"no, no, they're only step-family, honest!"] porn became popular enough to be notable.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I want to believe you, but the stats would worry about Westermarck Effect covering this

Where the fuck is there suddenly such a big increase in (heterosexual) incest? Isn’t it still one of the rarest things in the world? (Not counting cousin marriages)

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Where the fuck is there suddenly such a big increase in (heterosexual) incest? Isn’t it still one of the rarest things in the world? (Not counting cousin marriages)

I don't know about a big increase, but no-- it isn't esp. rare, and never has been... unfortunately. At least if we're talking about fathers (and even more particularly stepfathers) preying on their minor daughters. Also other male adults in a girl's family: uncles; grandfathers. When you're talking about incest... that's the prototypical example of it. Which, being male/female, really does fly in the face of the idea that there's any great aversion to it based on reproductive considerations. (And of course, with a stepfather, genetics aren't even a factor.) The aversion in contemporary culture is mainly because it's child molestation, and in a context where the child is even more vulnerable than usual-- because the man molesting her is someone whom she's emotionally, and legally, dependent on; one of the very people she has a right to look to for protection. It's a terrible betrayal of a child.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

stepfather

While definitely an inappropriate and unethical grooming relationship, I don’t count this as incest so for me the point here is moot.

Fathers, Grandfathers and Uncles

Question, is Grandfather or Uncle heterosexual incest more common than father/daughter? As much as it creeps me out to admit it I would imagine the Westernmarck Effect doesn’t extend outside of first-degree relatives (so like parents and full siblings) I mean stuff like cousin and half-sibling marriage has been a historical norm for a reason, perhaps the genetic relatedness in the case of extended family members is just distant enough to offset any potential for inbreeding side-effects and so our species hasn’t yet developed an effective innate aversion to it like we have for 1st degree incest?

The father/daughter cases being as common as you tell me is what really astounds me, why isn’t the Westermarck Effect working on these men? Unless Paternity Uncertainty makes it so that a father can never truly know if his daughters are actually his daughters and that might be a factor here in the decreased aversion to first-degree incest?

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

While definitely an inappropriate and unethical grooming relationship, I don’t count this as incest so for me the point here is moot.

I consider it incest because it's driven by the same factors as with incestuous fathers (see below).

Question, is Grandfather or Uncle heterosexual incest more common than father/daughter?

Hard to say; it's my impression that father/daughter is the most common. Which, yes, contradicts the Westermarck Effect... but there are other factors at play here, specifically cultural ones. Never forget that being the one species to possess conceptual intelligence means that our behavior is shaped not only by evolution and biology, but also by ideas. Including ones that are wrong. In both sense of the word. As well as destructive and, sometimes, just fucking stupid. Like the "trans" train wreck! And, indeed, "gender" as a whole. That's the ideology underpinning the incestuous abuse of girls. Which leads me to:

The father/daughter cases being as common as you tell me is what really astounds me, why isn’t the Westermarck Effect working on these men?

Because something else is working on them, and it's stronger: gender roles. The ancient, pervasive system of sex-based stereotypes which classify "female" as inferior and "male" as superior. Female people are seen primarily in terms of the value given them by male people; since most male people are straight, this is fundamentally sexual. Most men don't extend this rule to their daughters, of course... but, unsurprisingly, quite a few do. Because that's what girls are for, in their minds (and it's one logical way of reading gender roles, tbf).

Which is the basic reason why I hate gender-woo. And everything that arises from it. Because this is the original evil ideology. Whether anyone tries to disguise it with colorful, New! Improved!TM packaging or not.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Because something else is working on them, and it's stronger: gender roles. The ancient, pervasive system of sex-based stereotypes which classify "female" as inferior and "male" as superior. Female people are seen primarily in terms of the value given them by male people; since most male people are straight, this is fundamentally sexual. Most men don't extend this rule to their daughters, of course... but, unsurprisingly, quite a few do. Because that's what girls are for, in their minds (and it's one logical way of reading gender roles, tbf).

I think you’re mis-reading your classic case of the “which came first, the chicken or the egg” question. Gender Roles only came about because of man’s need to propagate his genes and impregnate and rape as many women possible. Men see women through a solely sexual lens because that’s generally how the two sexes of any reproductive species see each other, it’s apart of the heterosexual reproductive imperative.

I don’t put that much stock in the concept that humans are so highly evolved as to be somehow an exception to this rule, we’re just another type of animal at the end of the day. Which still wouldn’t explain this supposed prevalence of fathers raping their biological daughters since gender roles just serve to enforce man’s need to fulfill their reproductive imperative, and a heterosexual’s 1st degree relatives should automatically be excluded from the list of “viable sexual partners” for obvious reasons.

I think something else might be going on here… And if it’s not paternity uncertainty (I find it interesting that there are apparently zero cases of brothers molesting their biological sisters in comparison) I have to wonder… Tell me, do the majority of these father/daughter molestation cases take place when the daughter herself is prepubescent or is she usually a menstruating teen?

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

That's slightly different from what I'm saying. There isn't a big increase in heterosexual incest yet, BUT, considering that incest porn has exploded as a genre in the last decade, that obviously says there IS a big increase of people who are turned on by the thought of incest...and if that number of people who are turned on by that rises, it stands to reason there will eventually be a rise in people who manage to succeed at it.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Is this straight incest in particular that’s exploded or gay?

If it is straight is it an actual emphasis on being blood-related or is it more of a Step family fetish thing?

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It usually tends to be straight incest that is seen a lot (though gay incest porn isn't uncommon either.)

For the straight part, it depends on where it's made. Fanfiction/fanart will do more outright blood-related stuff (and it's important the rise started through hentai doujinshi which did have it as blood-related to kick it into overdrive.) Actual humans in porn, it's step family fetish stuff, but I still don't consider that a good excuse considering how many times the step fetish shit will have a scene with multiple partners, and how when this happens, each partner in the scene are sold as step-relatives of each other in a "...yeah, after you have more than about 3 people in the scene, you're not fooling anyone. If you have to have some incredibly intricate family tree of who's parent married who to explain how they're all not blood-related step-family, we all kind of know some of the people in that scene are supposed to be blood-related and engaging in incest together."

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Fanfiction/fanart will do more outright

Funny cause in fandom spheres I’ve mostly noticed the opposite - people are way more willing to ship and write/draw incest if it’s same sex, whereas het incest tends to be limited to those really creepy & degenerate Otaku oriented anime that are targeted towards pedos.