i really wish that "you're not a real lesbian" was used less of the time in arguments between lesbians.

submitted by literallyjustvibing from (self.Lesbians)

this is kind of a niche observation but lesbians who consider trans women lesbians will say "TERFS aren't lesbians!!" and lesbians who do not consider trans women lesbians will say "non-radfem lesbians aren't lesbians!!". we are all lesbians, no matter our beliefs. lesbian simply means a female homosexual. does anyone have any idea why this is so common among lesbians? i haven't seen it with other lgbt groups (e.x.: i've never seen a pro-trans bi girl say that a radfem bi girl wasn't actually bi).

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[–]FrostyNugs 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

People love to think that lesbian is a political stance and not a sexual orientation. This way people they disagree with can be "not real lesbians" or "bad lesbians" for not following specific beliefs, when in reality there are no "rules" to being a lesbian except 1. Be homosexual and 2. Be a woman. I honestly think there are a lot of lesbians who are lesbian as a political statement first and as a homosexual second, if that makes sense.

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

yeah it does!! a trans-supporting lesbian would find it easy to call a radfem lesbian not a lesbian if she views lesbianism as more of a political stance. i've never thought about it that way but i think you're right.

[–]MyLongestJourney 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

a trans-supporting lesbian

You can both support genuine trans rights and not be open to fuck a transwoman (because you like actual pussy and not penis,inverted or not ).

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

of course you can. another reason why the "yOuRe NoT a ReAL LeSbiAn" claim is silly. the only thing you need to be a lesbian is to be a female homosexual.

[–]TalerTest 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Is this really something common? Personally, I haven't seen it.

lesbians who consider trans women lesbians will say "TERFS aren't lesbians!!" and lesbians who do not consider trans women lesbians will say "non-radfem lesbians aren't lesbians!!".

What do you mean by this? The people who believe that trans women can be lesbians are usually not lesbians so I can understand saying "you're not a real lesbian" to someone in that case. Like you said, a lesbian is a female homosexual so if a supposed lesbian was trying to tell me that heterosexual men can be lesbians I would be doubtful of her sexuality. Or just think she's high on the kool-aid.

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

yeah it is pretty common. especially on tumblr where i used to hang out a lot. bio homosexual women would be saying to other bio homosexual women that they weren't lesbians just because they disagreed lol. but you would think that a non-radfem lesbian was probably not a lesbian? no judgement, i'm still learning.

[–]TalerTest 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I'm not a rad-fem, I'm not that into politics. Believing in biological realities doesn't make someone a radical feminist or a radical anything. I don't mean to be rude, but I get the inkling that you need some deprogramming. That tumblr science will melt your brain.

I have a question too. Would you think that women who date men who call themselves lesbians are lesbians?

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

i don't think believing in biological reality makes you a radfem. (it's a really reasonable position). however, i was trying not to use "TERF", because i saw the sub guidelines did not allow it. i needed a neutral word for a lesbian that did not consider trans women lesbians. (what would you suggest?)

and no, i would not. from a biological/logical standpoint, they are dating biological men, making them bisexual. however, they could also be lesbians who feel pressured to date lesbian-identified males in order to be "inclusive". but generally, no they are not lesbians (homosexual females).

[–]TalerTest 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

i needed a neutral word for a lesbian that did not consider trans women lesbians. (what would you suggest?)

I suggest lesbian 😂

no one here believes that transwomen can be lesbians. That's why we were kicked off Reddit

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

see, you've just done what i was talking about in my post. not to sound too angry, but by saying "i suggest lesbian" you're implying that homosexual females who do think transwomen can be lesbians aren't lesbians!! the fact is, there are many different kinds of lesbians, each with different beliefs and values. so, no, "lesbian" does not cut it to describe a lesbian who doesn't think transwomen can be lesbians (even though i agree with that position).

also i'm so glad i found this place, i can't believe all the feminist subs were banned. reddit really does hate women.

[–]TalerTest 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I'm aware that I just did what you were talking about, it was meant to be ironic, sorry.

I can see a lesbian saying that she believes that transwomen can be lesbians just so others don't call her a bigot, but a woman who will willingly date a transwomen is not a lesbian by definition. Trans woman + biological woman = heterosexual relationship. In this case it's not about beliefs, it's about facts.

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

oh whoops. i'm bad at telling sarcasm sometimes, sorry :). what's the general consensus on the word terf? do most lesbians really dislike being called it? and i still have the question, whats the best neutral term for a lesbian who thinks lesbian = bio woman exclusively attracted to bio woman?

and yes i agree with you on the dating thing. i was just trying to make allowances because the pressure to not be a tRaNsPhObE is very real. but yes, a trans woman and a bio woman dating is a het relationship. any other way doesn't really make any sense.

[–]TalerTest 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think anyone here would care if you called them a TERF because we've all accepted that in 2020 being homosexual makes you transphobic by default. I don't know a neutral term for lesbians who believe in biology, but you're not going to be banned for using TERF in a non-derogatory way so don't worry

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

okay good to know. lesbians are so abused and clowned on everywhere online i didn't want to come into one of the rare safe spaces and make everyone uncomfortable. so i will use it but be careful

[–]Anniesworld 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What about call them rational lesbians who understand basic biology. RLWUBB for short. I'm really just kidding though. It's a little ridiculous that we have to identify ourselves as rational people.

I get what you're saying about women who were peer pressured into dating a trans woman ( male). I think they are lesbians who are brain washed, In the same way a lesbian who went through a conversion therapy program has been convinced or coerced to be with males. Or they could be queer, which is in my personal opinion, is mostly straight women and some real bisexuals who want woke points.

I think that lesbians fear identifying as lesbian because of social and sexual stigma. Identifying as lesbian makes men more inclined to try and "change you" so I understand avoiding it. It's probably why they identify as nonbinary and queer now. Men have a porn obsession with turning lesbians and I think identifying as queer/nonbinary puts in a younger lesbians mind less focus on then as being sexualized by men with the added bonus of being hip and young.

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

especially on tumblr

Get off the internet and return to the real world.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it’s one thing to be a lesbian who supports trans people and trans activism generally but does not believe they can be lesbians but is quiet about that part and a so-called lesbian who believes trans women can be women in any meaningful way. I agree that the latter are highly unlikely to be homosexual females if they think lesbian is just something you can identify into.

I’m reminded that most mainstream celebrity and YouTube celeb gays will make the “yes of course some lesbians have penises” and TWAW comments but they never ever date TW. We don’t really have to wonder why that is. TRAs have to have noticed. I wonder why they don’t push them more on this and my guess is that TRAs know it would be a bad look. They focus on bullying people who don’t have large support systems. JK Rowling is their biggest mistake yet and I wonder how much that helped the Gender Critical movement in the UK. It seems like it started a lot of conversations in the mainstream.

[–]Shroomba 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If 'TERFs' aren't lesbians then wtf are we? 🤣 The only requirement to being a lesbian is being an adult human female exclusively into other adult human females. I think because the label 'lesbian' is so disrespected and meaningless these days is why a lot of people have no problem saying that a woman isn't a real lesbian.

[–]VioletRemi 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I never saw any lesbian saying "you are not real lesbian", lesbians are saying "you are not lesbian at all" to transwomen (and to bisexuals sometimes). Only times I saw someone was using "not real lesbian" is when men were trying to get into our pants.

Words have their meanings and words exist to communicate. Lesbian means female homosexual. In other words female that loves other females and only females. So just by definition transbian is not a lesbian at all, just because transbian is a male with penis. Same with women who are sleeping with transbians - she is just a bisexual, not lesbian. Same with women who are hating man - they aren't lesbians either.

All those "now this word means something different" is so stupid and only creates confusion. Words exist to communicate and to mean something, not to mean nothing. And because of those "now word means something different" we are getting into such weird situations like this. And then males bullying lesbians to sleep with them - like homophobes were always doing before - but now they are "victims".

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

lesbians saying that males (transbians) aren't lesbians is different to what i'm talking about. i've seen libfem lesbians saying that radfem lesbians aren't actually lesbians. like "i'm revoking your lesbian card". which makes it clear they see lesbianism as primarily a political position rather than a sexual orientation.

but yes i agree - lesbian is female homosexual. the only way you can be a lesbian and sleep with a transbian is if you've been pressured into it by people who think that sexual boundaries are """""transphobic""""".

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

Not even sleeping with them is accounting here, but if she liked it or not. I was married on a man for 2.5-3 years, and I thought I was asexual. Sexologist gave a conclusion that I am frigid. I really tried hard to "fix" myself to love men (as I only had crushes into women before, and living in homophobic country with hard censore over homosexual information, I had no idea that women can be together). Sleeping with woman I liked in one bed (not even having sex, just laying close) "fixed" that "frigidness" in an instant, tho! So what I am saying that lesbian will not be even aroused from male and will not really enjoy sex with male, and it is not because "lesbian have chosen that" or it is "preferences", no, it is because of how we were born. We just can't, even if we try, even if we really will want to, - it is not how our body works.

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

yeah trust me, i know. i tried to fix myself for a long time, which led me to label myself as a "probably asexual trans boy" (yikes). but you're totally right, it's the liking that determines if you're a lesbian.

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Ha ha, I tried to "become a boy, so then I will be able to be with women" too at some point :D

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

don't we all 😂

[–]piylot 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think this does happen amongst other minorities — shunning out other members and strongly asserting that they don't represent you. When your whole advocacy revolves around improving public perception of the aspect of yourself that makes you part of the minority there will be a blurred line where that advocacy becomes narcissism. It's a defence of your own image by aggressively disassociating yourself from someone else's image.

I hate it too. I've been disappointed to find other lesbian forums where there's a lot of accusations of "you're probably actually bi" "or you're probably a male pretending to be a lesbian on here" and it's just hostile.

[–]beholdyourheart 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In general I'm not a fan of the weird 'secret club' vibe that seems to be present in a lot of modern LGBT discussion. Like all the posts about 'TERFs get their lesbian card revoked!' as though being homosexual is about perceived morality as opposed to just our sexuality. Like it doesn't matter what someone's morals or beliefs are - to me sexuality is a completely neutral thing but a lot of queer activists tend to treat it like a fandom you can be cancelled from.

In terms of specifically arguments between lesbians, I agree to an extent. I don't think that every woman who is a big proponent of the 'trans women are lesbians' rhetoric is necessarily not a lesbian - I was entrenched in that sort of thing for quite a few years; lesbians can say that kind of stuff even if their sexuality would never allow them to be attracted to a male person. Especially young lesbians who get absolutely hounded if they ever so much as suggest that they're not into dick, or lesbians in a relationship already so there's no pressure on them to actually act on what they say. But towards supposed 'lesbians' who are literally in relationships with male people, then yeah I'm very skeptical lmao.

But yeah overall I agree with you, I don't like the no-true-Scotsman fallacy ever and it's especially annoying with something as fixed and neutral as sexuality.

[–]VioletRemi 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

as though being homosexual is about perceived morality

...like we can even chose to be homosexual or not, lol. For them being lesbian is "just a choice". Same homophobic rhetoric I am hearing whole life.

[–]just_lesbian_things 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

lesbians who do not consider trans women lesbians will say "non-radfem lesbians aren't lesbians!!"

I've never heard anyone say that here. You mentioned it happened on a different platform, so maybe airing your grievances there would be more productive.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am over the gatekeeping sexuality thing. I will forever define lesbian as a woman exclusively attracted to other women. But I am done giving a shit about other people's sexuality, they want to be silly about it then that's their problem.

[–]MyLongestJourney 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

and lesbians who do not consider trans women lesbians will say "non-radfem lesbians aren't lesbians!!".

No.What we say is that if you are attracted to male bodies,you are not a lesbian.I never saw anyone invalidate female homosexuality based on political beliefs.

[–]literallyjustvibing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

i have, though. lesbians invalidating other lesbians just because they disagree. as if lesbianism is a political stance and not a sexual orientation.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Female homosexuality does not need anyone's "validation". And nobody can erase that desire. So,don't fret and carry on liking pussy.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. Though I don't bother with it myself because it seems like a waste of time, I don't see a problem with pushing back on women who are actively with or who intend to pursue men, transbians, or even gently suggesting to someone that they might be bisexual in a nonjudgmental way if they seem to be struggling with an attraction to men.

But I otherwise really hate it when lesbians try to sniff out secret bisexuals or act like they've got any say in who the real lesbians are, especially when it involves something as petty as a disagreement. It can get really gross.

[–]MyLongestJourney 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

this is kind of a niche observation but lesbians who consider trans women lesbians will say "TERFS aren't lesbians!!"

Lesbian # radical feminist.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In modern twitter and facebook just saying "I am lesbian and like only pussies" will mark you as "terf".

[–]MyLongestJourney 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am well aware of that.Let's not adopt their newspeak ourselves.