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[–]oofreesouloo 35 insightful - 5 fun35 insightful - 4 fun36 insightful - 5 fun -  (19 children)

Thanks for the insightful context. Regardless, I still don't think it was/is right to appropriate the lesbian label when the woman is not a lesbian. If she doesn't want to be with men, fine. But that doesn't make her a lesbian.

EDIT: I continue to despise all political lesbians, despite of the context

[–]reluctant_commenter 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for the insightful context. Regardless, I still don't think it was/is right to appropriate the lesbian label when the woman is not a lesbian.

Best short summary of people's opinions over the entire thread, imo.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    I know. That's why I said it. :)

    It seems like a lot of the conflict in this thread might be due to miscommunication.

    [–][deleted]  (13 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]oofreesouloo 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

      Political lesbianism is, however, fake and forced lesbianism, contrarily to what the title says. I don't care the "reasons". Abstaining from sex or deciding not to be with men anymore =/= lesbianism

      [–]florasis 28 insightful - 3 fun28 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

      Oh not, I don't want my sexuality to being a political stance. Lesbianism is just natural inclination, it has nothing to do with politics.

      [–][deleted]  (45 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]oofreesouloo 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

        Perfect answer right here

        [–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        Was about to comment that. I should've read it before posting my comment lol.

        [–]Astrid2448 23 insightful - 2 fun23 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

        This seems just as dumb as it seemed before. They should've never co-opted a word that referred to an oppressed group of gay people. I don't care if a bunch of straight and bi women are trying to stick it to the man or be celibate or whatever it is. Leave us out of it.

        [–]a_blue_bird 17 insightful - 8 fun17 insightful - 7 fun18 insightful - 8 fun -  (12 children)

        Some quotes from a recent (2018) article by Sheila Jeffreys, on political lesbianism in the 70s-90s UK and on a book she wrote about it:

        Lesbianism and heterosexuality were seen as socially constructed, not innate [by lesbian feminists]. So, hundreds of thousands of women internationally who might not have considered it before and been shaped by all the social pressures to be heterosexual, chose to become lesbians. This mass creation of lesbians was crucial to our politics and to everything we achieved. Now, unfortunately, the idea that lesbianism and heterosexuality, as well as masculinity and femininity are innate and cannot be changed, is fashionable even amongst many younger lesbians who see themselves as feminists. I was involved in lesbian feminism in this period. I made the choice to become a lesbian because of my politics [.......] Most were ‘political lesbians’, in the sense that they became lesbians as a result of their involvement in the WLM and exposure to lesbian feminists and lesbian feminist ideas. This practice of feminists choosing lesbianism as a form of resistance to male supremacy may seem foreign to common notions about lesbianism today, even within feminist circles, which are that lesbianism is something essential, not something that can be chosen [.....] Another chapter of the book is devoted to the crucial critique of heterosexuality which lesbian feminists created, showing that heterosexuality is not an unfortunate effect of nature, but a social construction. [....] Girls are made sexually heterosexual through the sexual attention of boys and men throughout their lives as well as the world of propaganda they are surrounded by, the porn and girls’ and women’s magazines about how to please men in bed and explaining how to do anal sex without too much pain and how to lie on a bed to enable the penis to go right down the throat. Heterosexuality is created by a culture in which all the novels in the airport bookstore are about hets, in which all the movies, plays, poetry, are still overwhelmingly het. And so on. [....] The theorising of sexuality and heterosexuality was the greatest theoretical achievement of lesbian feminism. And a most important aspect of this was the creation of political lesbianism, the idea that women could make a political choice to be lesbians.

        Jeffreys is famous for claiming that she ''was once heterosexual, but then chose to be a lesbian''. And she means ''lesbian'' as in homosexual, not celibate. Her view, and as she describes it - the view of the majority of the political lesbians - was and still is that sexuality is a social construct, created through social practices and pressures, and can be changed through the same route.

        Edit: Look, I found an ever better quote from her book (parts of it are readable on Google):

        Today .. there is much opposition in the online lesbian community to the idea that a woman who has been heterosexual can or should become a lesbian at all. There is a resurgence of the nineteenth-century sexological idea that lesbianism is an innate condition. The understanding that sexuality is not fixed enabled thousands of women to leave heterosexuality at the time of the WLM and become lesbians. As feminist social constructionist influence waned, the biological determinism that was always more favoured by gay men came to prominence again.

        Who's a basic bitch now?

        [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

        Most women who end up lesbian think they are heterosexual, which is the reason it causes so much strife for us. Women think they are straight first and don’t even recognize lesbianism. Political lesbianism made it possible to explore sexual orientation, and now many of us have begun to see it is innate, myself included. What’s your actual point?

        Edit: do you support women who have slept with men never coming out? Lots of lesbians are literally saying that now, when it is so common for lesbians to sleep with men, or believe they are heterosexual before realizing they are lesbians. Women who have had heterosexual sex come out as lesbians a lot.

        [–]a_blue_bird 17 insightful - 4 fun17 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

        My actual point is that your claim ''Women that were not attracted to other women were not cosplaying lesbians in the 60s and 70s, for Christ’s sake'' is simply false. Not only did they do it then, but they are still doing it now. And they're not even hiding any of their views on sexuality being a social construct, as opposed to a fixed, innate trait.

        Most women who end up lesbian think they are heterosexual

        True if you take into account all the political lesbians.

        Edit: do you support women who have slept with men never coming out?

        I support women who say ''I used to be heterosexual once'' never coming out as lesbians.

        [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

        POLITICAL LESBIAN DOES NOT MEAN THEY FUCKED WOMEN. They were not out there being literal fake lesbians luring in women to have fake lesbian sex with and that was the whole movement. They were centring women and women’s issues politically. “Political lesbianism.” They were in the political lesbian movement, and called themselves “political lesbians.” Which does not mean sex with women as a given. It was just possible. I like the idea of a world where realising you’re a lesbian is possible. Many women don’t even know how to get off, let alone get off with a partner. Man or woman.

        The word “lesbian” is clearly what is getting confused here. Lots of lesbians WERE “heterosexual” if you count their behaviour in dating and sleeping with men. That is heterosexual behaviour. I doubt many lesbians who did that would have called themselves “formerly straight” but instead say they came out.

        And like or or not, some women really do get to choose (bisexuals) and sometimes think they are lesbians or straight for years. We all had to choose to explore and people like Sheila Jeffreys said it was okay, and lots of us are here now experiencing a different kind of oppression from those who think gender is INNATE. Etc. I’m not a fan of lesbian cosplayers any more than the rest of you, I’m a goldstar, but I doubt I could have been a goldstar if not for the idea that some women are lesbians and I got to explore that, and it’s directly related to what women did in the 60s and 70s.

        [–]a_blue_bird 19 insightful - 6 fun19 insightful - 5 fun20 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

        They were centring women and women’s issues politically.

        Absolutely, lol. When Sheila Jeffreys writes ''sexuality is not fixed, it is an old fashioned 19th century sexological belief that lesbianism is innate'' she actually means ''you should shop in women owned stores and vote for abortion rights!'' Wow, how did I not connect the dots myself??

        We all had to choose to explore and people like Sheila Jeffreys said it was okay

        No, people like Sheila said that sexuality is a social construct, and it is anti-feminist to still choose to fuck men when you can socialize yourself into lesbianism. She constantly uses the word sexuality for a reason. It is about sex.

        To put it simply - you're in massive denial about political lesbianism.

        [–]oofreesouloo 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

        This.

        [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

        So they were not centring women and women’s issues?

        It is possible to disagree with her, and believe that lesbianism is innate to many of us, without making an entire political movement and my defence of it to me being “in massive denial.” It takes a lot more denial to be so reductive about a entire movement for women.

        [–]oofreesouloo 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

        So if me, as a lesbian, decided now that I only wanted to date men because I firmly believe in the "traditional" view of the family and believe the child should have a mother and a father, I could call myself a political straight woman? See how ridiculous that is? (this was just a random example). Again, I don't care about the reasons - it's NOT right to say you're a lesbian when you're not. Simple as that. You can fight for women's rights without resorting to the lesbian label, jeeeez.

        [–]lairacunda 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

        POLITICAL LESBIAN DOES NOT MEAN THEY FUCKED WOMEN

        That's my point exactly. And if you don't fuck women and you're a woman, how exactly is it that you are a lesbian?

        You can center women, you can walk away from men and the patriarchy all you want. But fucking women is the sine qua non of being a lesbian.

        We don't all "choose to explore". Even if you're comp-hetting you know you are living a lie.

        You can have an unhappy, straight relationship trying to make it work and lying to yourself. Just because you go through the motions of being straight doesn't mean you ARE straight. So, "Lots of lesbians WERE “heterosexual” " is a self-cancelling statement. If they were heterosexual then they are not lesbians. If they are lesbians then they were lesbians pretending and trying to be straight.

        [–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

        That's so funny. Me and countless others only ever had girl-crushes when were kids and have never been in-love with a male.

        Doesn't mean some lesbians go along with societal expectations. And depending on the climate and how punitive it is towards lesbians more of us will be in the closet. That doesn't mean you choose your sexuality, only whether you will embrace it or be miserable for the rest of your life.

        [–]Assgnostic 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

        The context is dumb lmao, so long as it says "lesbian" but doesn't strictly mean "lesbian," it's bad.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [removed]

          [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

          They seem to give a fuck. Behold the evidence.

          [–]CatsOrGoHome 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (14 children)

          Political lesbians can step on a million legos for all I care. They are the reason lesbians aren't taken as seriously as gay men. They are part of the reason we have problems now. I will always hate them for the damage they have done and are still doing. My sexuality is not political, it just is.

          [–]spirette 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

          I mean, the reason lesbians aren't taken seriously is because we are women and we don't care about dick. Not because a few straight women are bitter about men. Let's be real here. If no straight woman called herself a lesbian, we would still be mocked and dismissed.

          [–]Innisfree 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

          Yes. I think modern political lesbians or as someone else in this thread said 'lesbian cosplayers' do create a bad rep but are they really that influential across the world. In my conservative country nobody heard of political lesbians, the concept doesn't exist here. But does that stop men trying to have sex with lesbians. Noooo, men actively pursue lesbians.

          Look at South Africa - corrective rape. Look at Latin America - lesbians are targeted specifically for being lesbians - it's like they're some high value prey for men. Edit: spelling

          [–]Jolowicz1313 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

          Thank you. I'll never get all the hate directed at political lesbians as if it was the greatest plague for real lesbians. A handful of hardcore feminist bi women deciding never again to have sex with men does not impact lesbians or anybody. Bi / queer / straight women calling themselves lesbian and then sleeping with men does. We have much bigger enemies to fight.

          [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

          Thank you. For real. Innate gender feels and co-opting of lesbian movements is literally destroying lesbianism, but let’s get mad at some women who literally love women, if not with their bodies, then with their activism in the world.

          [–][deleted]  (6 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]Innisfree 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            I get the energy bit - it was the reason I didn't post in forums at all. But I'm glad SD posted and everybody contributed. In the course of an hour I learned and refined my thinking on an important issue in our community.

            What can be more exciting and rewarding than thinking together? And also it is good practice to not approach a subject from an emotional point of view.

            [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Gay men are taken seriously because bi men can’t come out, so it seems like there are none. Men have much different social expectations on their sexuality than women do, women are seen as sex objects to begin with so no one is surprised when we fuck eachother as long as we are still available to MEN. At least political lesbians, even the straight ones, took men right out of the equation. Which is a lot better than women who call themselves lesbians and sleep with men, or bi women who hate men but only date men. These are different groups.

            [–]lairacunda 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

            "lesbians [who] sleep with men", "bi women who hate men" aren't lesbians. And neither are political lesbians. You know who's been "taking men out of the equation" or rather never including them in the equation to begin with? Lesbians!

            Please, JUST LET US HAVE THIS ONE LITTLE WORD TO OURSELVES!

            [–][deleted] 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

            Thank you for this. I am a second wave lesbian. It is difficult for lesbians today to understand how it was back in the 1970’s.

            Lesbian liberation was an offshoot of the women’s movement. (The women’s movement grew out of the civil rights movement. Leftist women got tired of being told to make the coffee and to take notes in meetings.)

            I can’t put into words the excitement of the time during the 1970’s for women to begin to realize that we had power and that we could fight for what we wanted and needed.

            Everyone was protesting in the early 1970’s. Simultaneously, people were protesting for civil rights, against the Vietnam war and for women’s liberation and then for lesbian and gay liberation.

            Out of this, came the voices for political lesbianism. Some women wanted to stop giving all of their energies to men, in every way possible. It never really became widespread, because heterosexual women wanted to fight for women’s liberation but did not want to forgo relationships with men. It was a political stance, not a sexual one for many women. Understandable if one is heterosexual.

            This isn’t to say that some women were not sexually curious, that some women may have been bisexual and chose to only have relationships with women or that a lot of women realized that they were lesbian in that politically charged time. That is when and how I came out.

            Everything is always about the context of the time period in which things happened. I appreciate that given what is going on today with TIMS and their handmaidens attempting to appropriate lesbian culture and identity, I don’t see a place for political lesbianism in 2020 as it was back in the 1970’s.

            It doesn’t mean that it was wrong in the 1970’s. We didn’t even know TIMS existed back then. There were always drag queens (but not a lot of them) but not this wholesale trans bullshit.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              Sometimes I get discouraged because it feels almost as though we are going backwards but given how long lesbians have been fighting for the right to exist, inch by inch, we will gain ground.

              Thank you for your response.

              [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

              yes, thank you for your insight and explaining what this is all about.

              [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              Thank you. We are all sisters.

              [–]spirette 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              I am all for straight women staying celibate. Just don't call it "lesbianism" then. If it doesn't involve lesbian sex and lesbian love then it's not lesbianism. Pick another term. Don't drag lesbians into that mess. Life is hard enough, we don't need straight women pretending to be lesbians using lesbians and crushing their hearts when it's revealed they are not in fact attracted to women.

              [–]writerlylesbian 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

              I pretty much agree with how you've characterised the context of what political lesbianism meant back when the concept first came into being. I also agree that it gave many women a positive space in which they could connect with other women, and that it gave lesbians a space in which they could explore themselves and realise they were lesbians.

              But I also agree with the person who quoted the recent Sheila Jeffreys article where she talks about sexuality being a social construct. That really is what she, and others, were arguing back then, and some of them are still arguing for it now. And I don't think we have a lot of evidence that most people can choose their sexuality at will.

              The other thing I'd point out is that, regardless of the good intentions of political lesbianism in its original context, it still was absolutely a large-scale attempt to redefine what lesbianism meant. The intent was to move lesbianism away from being female homosexuality, and into being this other thing that was an ideological political position, that may or may not involve sexual contact with other women for some.

              This did have negative consequences for some lesbians at the time, particularly those who resisted lesbianism becoming an identity and wanted to keep it as being a sexual orientation. There were a lot of lesbian feminists books that talked about lesbians who were sexually attracted to other women, but not feminists, as not being 'true lesbians', and being quite derogatory about such women. They were pretty much viewed as the 'genital fetishists' of the day, and I absolutely think it was the inherent homophobia in these 'political lesbians' (many of whom were just straight women) that made them act in pretty shitty ways towards actual lesbians who wanted to sleep with other women. Not in every case, of course, but there was a conflict going on there.

              From talking to older lesbians who lived through those times, it seems like there was also a class element to all this as well. The butch femme culture that Jeffreys famously condemned was, from what I understand, mainly a culture of working class lesbians at the time. Many of the women who were involved in all the theorising around political lesbianism and lesbian feminism tended to be women who were middle class or upper class, and writing from within the university sector at the time. So it was a bit of a top-down movement that was seeking to reclassify lesbianism as something for all separatist women, regardless of sexual orientation, while the dirty genital fetishist lesbians (who weren't on board) didn't get a say. I know there was one lesbian from a working class background who ended up going into the university sector precisely because that community felt like they needed to have a voice who could push back against this whole idea of reclassifying lesbianism into an identity, because so many ordinary lesbians who weren't as politically involved weren't cool with it. I just wish I could remember who it was!

              So I do think it's not surprising at how political lesbianism has evolved to become what it is today, because the seeds of that were already there in what the movement was proposing. I'm happy to recognise the original context of the idea, to talk of some of the positives that came out of it, but I'm also going to criticise what I see as some of its hugely problematic aspects, both then and now.

              [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

              A wholesale condemnation of the entire political lesbian movement and the women involved is what most women are doing in 2020, and many know very little about it, especially it’s context in history. It has been reduced to “fake lesbian” the way that “terf” reduces women to transphobes. Political lesbianism is not without criticism, but it is also not without merit, as you said. I do see political lesbianism and lesbian orientation as different things, because they really are different things, I just can’t dismiss the helpful aspects for women, and I wish that was not the most common narrative around it. I honestly don’t think we could avoid it becoming an identity because women and men existed that literally preferred both, and we all got lumped in together anyway using “born this way” politics. Now literal men are “born in the wrong body.”

              [–]writerlylesbian 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

              Yeah, I guess where we differ in our assessment is that I think political lesbianism's 'project', as it were, to redefine 'lesbian' as a term for all feminist separatist women, and excise lesbianism as meaning female homosexuality, was actually quite damaging for a lot of lesbians. Both then and now.

              I do take your point about the movement creating space for some women to explore their lesbianism. I have met older women who talked about that being the case for them. But at the same time, space was taken away from lesbians who wanted lesbianism to be conceptually about female homosexuality. And such lesbians were often viewed as 'lesser' lesbians, by 'political lesbians' who were in fact often straight women, which is bizarre. I actually don't see it as very different to today's identity politics. The difference is that those co-opting lesbianism today are doing so within the framework of queer politics, whereas those of the second wave were doing it within a feminist framework.

              It's difficult as well because theorising the ways that lesbians, specifically, were oppressed as both lesbians and women was important, and a lot of that work was being done in the feminist movement, but not in the gay movement which was a lot more focused on gay men. But I think it very unfortunate that a lot of that theorising ended up in a place where 'lesbianism' was an identity that had not much to do with being an actual lesbian. Because I think that was probably alienating to a lot of lesbians who then didn't necessarily want to engage with the feminist movement because they could see the anti-lesbian sentiment that was inherent in a lot of these co-options. So they went and joined the gay movement instead. But then the gay movement progressed without having a lot of understanding of feminism, which was also ultimately to the detriment of lesbians, who got ignored and marginalised there too.

              I suppose the way I wish things had progressed was more like: 1) recognising lesbianism as a neutral sexual behaviour that has existed throughout history and across many different cultures and ethnicities (which suggests it is a biological phenomenon more than a culturally learned behaviour); 2) recognising that this behaviour has political consequences because patriarchy etc. but not collapsing it into a political identity, because it is a sexual behaviour that would continue to exist even if the political climate changed (e.g. feminism 'won' and there was no more oppression of women); 3) women getting together to form female only communities/groups, centreing themselves and other women, and recognising that such spaces will naturally be appealing to lesbians, without trying to say this is synonymous with lesbianism.

              [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

              Female bisexuality in patriarchy is really what undermined lesbianism. We can say political lesbianism or whatever else but women are always coming and going from lesbianism, especially when same sex relationships are so much more difficult. I really don’t know that we can truly lay blame on political lesbianism for eroding our potential as a community or as an orientation when there were always women with us who also favoured men sexually, and some didn’t realize, I suppose. I am not saying this to be biphobic, it’s just impossible to parse same-sex attracted women apart from how they say they identify, and that has been proven wrong over and over by the women themselves.

              Their orientation is still an orientation and at least political lesbianism tried to corral us all together without dudes, so nice try I guess, poli lez.

              Unfortunately bisexual women are double the number of lesbians. Orientation itself might actually be more at fault for the lack of lesbian spaces than any of the other factors blamed on polilez. Some women do choose a lesbian life, and those women are likely bisexual to some degree. To achieve the progression you would like, which sounds awesome, btw, lesbianism would probably need to literally include bi women. I don’t know how it would work unless we framed lesbian as a choice and or stopped using the word and made female only groups. Which is right back round to some deeply polilez ideas.

              Edit: just to clarify, I am not a fan of political lesbianism. I feel alienated by most of the discourse around lesbianism, myself, I just know, like you know, what it is and what it is not, and maybe have different ideas about it. I think it is not especially relevant right now, but I am really trying to find something that is so we can carve out a space for ourselves without losing potential lesbians and febfems by non stop behaving like assholes toward real women who need to have some space to find their way to us. If I were a late bloomer or a new lesbian I would be pretty scared to go anywhere near a bunch of women who want to treat second wave feminists miserably when it’s like they are our only hope. And they really did try and create safety for same sex attracted women, and women in general. It was an overreach, like movements that include every single woman can become, but it’s brutal to see these women reduced to “fakes” and “frauds” because they think some ughhhh things. I would rather learn from it

              [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

              it’s just impossible to parse same-sex attracted women apart from how they say they identify, and that has been proven wrong over and over by the women themselves.

              The main thing we can and should do is insist on the current definitions of woman, lesbian and bisexual as rooted in material reality.

              The solution to the bisexuals coming and going from the lesbian community is not policing them (realistically we can't) - but helping them own their experiences.

              Say a bisexual woman who several years into a relationship with a lesbian, for whatever reason feels incomplete and sort of peels away and goes on to have a relationship with a man. We can see how the public can misread the situation as one of a lesbian peeling away and going on to have a thing with a man.

              Well the TV series "The Bisexual" tried to correct the misconception by clearly describing such a narrative as part of a bisexual woman's experiences while representing lesbians as exclusively lesbian. And I welcome such representation. So yeah material reality all the way!

              And as was said elswhere, the main thrust of the attack on the definitions comes from men and their desire to have all women be sexually available to them.

              [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

              Our experiences are so fundamentally different from women who primarily date men, that it’s hard to imagine lesbians NOT policing our communities, although it would be helpful to be able to be less freaked out. I just don’t see it happening when women can’t stomach even the idea of febfems (who are similar to political lesbians minus the framework).

              But yes, the attack is from patriarchy and gets displaced on to women who try different ways to combat those attacks and liberate women. Which is essentially what depresses me because women’s efforts, though imperfect, don’t deserve to be flattened completely.

              [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

              although it would be helpful to be able to be less freaked out.

              Absolutely :). In the context of this forum it is understandable why women are on edge(the TRA debacle). Plus my guess is the people who misunderstood you are people who also said that they are not political and don't want to be. Now if this big thread at least nudged them to question their position, that's already a big win.

              And I hope you will keep posting here. I only joined and warmed up to staying because your comments absolutely crack me up!

              [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

              I am thrilled with this thread and don’t care about people liking me as much as I care about trying to shit less on entire generations of women who were trying things to help other women break free from extremely oppressive norms. The fact is, lesbians find lesbians and stay. That’s who stays, same-sex attracted women, the ones who were “born that way” or born MOSTLY that way. Lesbians will never stop existing. It’s not going to happen. But we sure like making it hard for them to get to us when we feel like the best analysis we can come up with about political lesbianism as a whole is by saying “fuck them, they are not lesbians!” when liberal feminism thinks being a prostitute or pornographer is empowering. Are we really trying to hate good old Sheila when at least she figured we could choose away from all of that? I don’t agree with her exact stance on orientation but I’ll be damned if I can’t admit she cares about women more than the majority who claim to.

              And thank you

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]writerlylesbian 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Joan Nestle is another writer to check out. She mostly wrote a lot about butch femme culture, and very much talked about lesbians as sexual beings (and women in general as sexual beings). She was critical of political lesbianism's attempts to de-sexualise lesbianism and make it an identity for any female feminist separatist. She also touches on the class aspects in some of her works.

                [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Also, I appreciate the amount of thought you put in and info. I hope everyone reads this.

                [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

                my brain says ouch. this requires too much thought. i'm just a girl who wants to love other girls. well, preferably one perfect girl for the rest of my life. anything else is too complicated to think about.

                [–]oofreesouloo 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                Saaame, omg I feel you so much girl lol

                [–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

                Stop being common bitches and learn something about your history for fuck’s sake.

                You know, a lot of the reason why people don't know history is because these are intensely charged issues that many bad actors lie about. I know you are frustrated, but please don't take it out on us. There's no reason to assume that people here don't care about a subject, just because they don't know about it. Most people here are curious and interested in learning things.

                It sounds like what the message you are trying to say is: "There was this movement called 'political lesbians' decades ago, and they paved the way for women's and lesbians' rights in many contexts." Fair enough. But, the thing is-- the word "political lesbian" means something different today than the way you are using it. And the phenomenon of today, is a legitimate concern.

                This is where I think you are misunderstanding other people:

                Stop demonizing this historical political act and philosophy. Start understanding its place in history and why it existed in the first place instead.

                When people say "fuck political lesbians", I don't think they're "demonizing this historical political act and philosophy"-- that is, I don't think they are talking about the women of the 60s. I think they are talking about the TRA-inclined women who are saying "I choose to be lesbian!" I believe you when you suggest that in 1960 or whatever, it was progressive to say, "I choose to be lesbian"-- but, simultaneously, in 2020 it is NOT progressive to say "I choose to be lesbian".

                You seem angry at people for misunderstanding you-- but the idea that being gay can be socialized is an extremely touchy subject, how can you blame people?? I myself was taught as a child that child abuse socializes people into becoming gay.

                edit: fixed formatting.

                [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

                Most people are not curious or they wouldn’t be extremely reductive and incorrect in their interpretation of things. They have unilaterally taken an idea that they don’t understand and run with it. Which is frustrating and deserved.

                You are curious, don’t project that on other people because it is just not the case, as is evidenced from the majority of typical knee-jerk responses responses on here where everyone just assumes i am on board with a bunch of bisexuals and straight people filling up the community and calling themselves lesbians, which is not true.

                [–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

                Most people are not curious or they wouldn’t be extremely reductive and incorrect in their interpretation of things.

                That is a major assumption to make, not only of people here but in general.

                It is safe to say people are interested in these topics (I certainly see a lot of comments on this post)-- but they might not be "curious" about your views if they perceive you as hostile. I do think people are misunderstanding your intent and meaning, to a large degree. But, your writing style in this post seemed pretty accusatory, and "political lesbians" (old meaning OR modern meaning) is a hot-button topic, so it does not surprise me that people are jumping to the defensive.

                You are curious, don’t project that on other people

                Thank you for the suggestion, lol. :) I cannot assume that about people on s/lesbians (edit: in particular), but my experience in my own life has been that most people ARE curious-- but only express it if you meet them where they are at. You did not do that.

                I am not trying to dismiss your views, I read your post and appreciated it. I think people are alienated not because they are "not curious" (with a few exceptions), but because the wording of the post had an accusatory tone. That's just my observation.

                [–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                This, thank you.

                [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                If you have seen curiosity over political lesbianism among lesbians then you must be looking a lot harder for it than I am. Hat’s off.

                Also, if people can’t handle some lesbian sounding mad about a topic then they haven’t read this board much. Do you think I was expecting a good reaction? Hell no. But look at how much conversation is happening. I think this has been a net good and I am pretty happy about the response even if people don’t like my attitude. I don’t like their attitude. Attitudes are going unliked.

                [–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                Do you think I was expecting a good reaction? Hell no. But look at how much conversation is happening.

                I am scratching my head. This seems like something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You made a fairly aggressive post, but then seemed surprised when people responded to your negativity with negativity.

                I am willing to bet more people would have realized that they actually agreed with you on the information, if they were not turned off by the way you presented the information. But, I don't know any other ways to say this besides the ways I already have, and you seem relatively satisfied with the outcome, so I'll leave it at that.

                I don’t like their attitude. Attitudes are going unliked.

                I am mildly amused by your attitude 😆

                [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                Okay, you got me. I was actually surprised by how few women exist that don’t immediately write off political lesbianism, and its context historically, and all the activists involved, as “fake lesbians.” My post was a response to negativity, so I knew it would receive a lot, but man, people really showed up to prove some points for me. That’s fine.

                I am really happy to see more info and discussion laid out on the subject around here. Even if most people hate political lesbianism and all it stands for in history, as least they can hate in context and stand in vagina power. Lol

                [–]lairacunda 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                Let me ask you something. Are you a lesbian? Are you a biological/natal female who is EXCLUSIVELY and SEXUALLY attracted to other bio/natal females?

                [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

                Yeah babe. I’m even a goldstar and came out at 16, knew at 12. I’ve been out for 20+ years. Do you want to see my membership card as well?

                [–]lairacunda 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                Do you have one?

                [–]lairacunda 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

                We live in an era where anyone and their dog can declare themselves a lesbian, no femaleness is even required. We bona fide lesbians are quite sick of it. The loneliness and isolation, the ostracism and depression, all because we are actively prevented from finding our own and building community. So yes, I resent the term "political lesbian". Whatever else they may be, however wonderful and enlightened, lovely human beings they may be, they are not lesbians. Because a lesbian is a human female who is EXCLUSIVELY and SEXUALLY ATTRACTED to other bio/natal females. And this means something. Because it's not a "choice". Only non-lesbians wake up one morning and say, "hmm, I think I will be a lesbian". Me? I actually tried to be straight for about a year and lost my gold star. Because after "coming out" I RAN back to the soul-killing "safety" of the closet, trying to conform to a chemistry that was not mine and could never make sense on a cellular level.

                The proximity of those "consensual" encounters caused me visceral PANIC, a nausea born deep within my very soul that could never be vomited into relief. Incapable of finding males even vaguely interesting let alone attractive, I went through a lesbian rite-of-passage of my generation, trying to be straight while vehemently repulsed. I went through other rites-of passage as well, like getting smacked at home and running away, getting kicked out of school for liking girls, being isolated from friends and girlfriends that I loved. I was one of the lucky ones. Had I been 10 years older I would have been electrocuted or lobotomized. Even now, women are forced-married, raped or killed. In some places that's standard for lesbians. Though it's currently way more fashionable to just trans us, sterilize us for life, give us medicalized diseases, shorten our life-spans, especially if we are gender-non-conformists which so many of us are.

                So yeah, I can see how a woman who is basically straight, sees her crappy position on the gender-hierarchy, her subordinate status in an unhappy and scary relationship (where no one's going to save her) and then looks over and sees the awesome things, community, culture and equal relationships we lesbians build for ourselves when we are actually able to, (which in the 70s we were), and could maybe feel that it would be great to have those things. I can see how she could decide that by a sleight-of-hand, verbal legerdemain and adroit nomenclature, that it could all be her own as well. I get it.

                I also understand that you don't need to lie about your sexuality to have women's community OR to withdraw your support from the patriarchy and its enforcers. You don't NEED to declare yourself a lesbian and pass yourself off as someone you're not. No, the only reason you would do that is if you want to violate boundaries and encroach on spaces where you would not otherwise be welcomed. So tell me why, at a time when we understand why blackface, transracialism and (hopefully here at least) transmedicalization are all a form of appropriation, it's perfectly okay to perform lesbian-face and come on a lesbian board to defend it!

                [–][deleted] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

                Loved the context edit. Speaking of context if people stoped to think about how big of a deal a woman in the 60’s to say, regardless of sexual orientation, that she didn’t need to be dependent/subservient to men was a big freaking deal and a giant middle finger. Then there is the context of today where true lesbianism feels under attack in most places. The term political lesbian feels, to me, like a gut punch to the times they were in and why it started. I see the answer to why bother is because if people aren’t challenged on things they won’t think.

                [–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

                Concepts that were so important to women in the 60s are being used against women now, and more of the time it’s by innate-gender-feels people and their fellows. They are taking comphet and political lesbianism and trying to bend it all around to claim women’s spaces and lesbianism when that was literally the exact opposite of what radfem and political lesbians meant to do, and is unrecognizable. Even people who hate the idea of a woman who is not sleeping with women calling herself a “political lesbian,” they can’t deny that their movement was by and FOR women, and we all benefit, especially same sex attracted women. Can liberal feminism say the same? I think not. More attack is coming from them than anyone else, at this point, they have just stolen some radfem critique and repurposed it for men. Polilez is being used just as surely as two-spirited people and intersex people and racial minorities etc by people who want to include men in lesbianism.

                [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

                Liberal feminism has muddied the waters of womanhood so bad men can say they are a woman because they want to, and made it ok for women to eat their own, and made a lot of us afraid to stand up for each other. They won’t see it as shooting themselves in the foot, but they are with a smile on their faces because they think they are helping. If you challenge them with feelings vs facts most of the can’t handle it. The political lesbian, even if it’s only political, stood for women as a whole and took us on a much larger leap ahead in a few short years then most liberal feminists could ever hope to accomplish in a life time.

                [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

                Yeah, and the irony is that these women advocated so hard for EXACTLY what we have lost. Women only spaces. Lesbian spaces with no men. Women-only LIFE. It is NOW considered hateful to ask for what political lesbians and radfems TOOK. But sure, go off. They were hardcore but had to be and I think we can see why. It is good to remember that they really were trying to save women from male violence. I’m pretty sure it was legal to rape your wife around then.

                [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                I wish Saidit had a heart icon to push.

                [–]beholdyourheart 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                While I think it's valuable to understand the historical significance of the movement, I really don't believe the term specifically should be used today (as in, actively referring to oneself as a political lesbian). I think there should be new words for straight/bi women who choose to live separately from men (which I think is a wonderful idea for women who want to do that). I know that the term febfem exists for bi women (female exclusive bisexual female), and I always liked that word because it encouraged women who wanted to center women in their lives and relationships without adding more fuel to the 'being a lesbian is a choice' fire. Similarly, I think that while the concept of political lesbianism and the ability to live without men is an important one, I don't approve of women today who refer to themselves as political lesbians right now given the struggles that we face with people diminishing our sexuality. I think it's tone-deaf, and it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a new term for centering women in one's life that doesn't co-opt homosexuality. Still, I think the history of the political lesbian movement is really interesting and I agree that we shouldn't condemn women in the past who referred to themselves as political lesbians.

                [–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                Ok go educate the polilez because they’re the ones who seem to not know any of this and act like how they say they don’t. :)

                [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                Honestly no one seems to know it.

                [–][deleted]  (9 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]Innisfree 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                  It is saying that the masterdoc, which is widely spread and supported by proponents of the modern theory of comphet (which is nearly indistinguishable from Rich's wishful thinking), is highly misleading and highly accessible to confused and traumatized girls and women who will likely be more harmed than helped by it.

                  This is the crux of the issue and good on Strictly for starting the thread. Nobody is advocating political lesbianism here. We're trying to understand how we ended up with the issue and provoke a discussion on how to counter it. At least it seems so to me.

                  [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  YES. EXACTLY.

                  And I feel I owe my goddamn freedom to be a lesbian to many of these women and I will always be grateful to them, even when I disagree. At least I UNDERSTAND their point and why it was important and still is to women in the most oppressed places.

                  [–]lairacunda 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

                  Political lesbians who think people can change their sexuality have that in common with the xtian wrongwing.

                  I've read some SJ and she makes a lot of good points. However, as far as I know she's not a lesbian.

                  Whoever said imitation is the greatest form of flattery never dreamed of this scenario.

                  [–]Innisfree 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                  Adrienne Rich Adrienne did create a conceptual idea (I don't even want to call it a hypothesis) that women can unlearn their attraction to men and love women instead. As far as I know, however, she did this entirely based on her own biases and absolutely zero qualified social, psychological, or scientific research went into it.

                  This would explain why her 'lesbian' poetry is quite bad.

                  And needless to say I agree with you especially with point 4. Thank you for a great post.

                  [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

                  THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

                  Without women who told women they could “choose” women, many many lesbians would never have been able to find themselves, and bisexual women, not in a world where “het” was the norm.

                  “Born this way” is also a political argument that helped gay men because sodomy WAS ILLEGAL and they were being jailed. How else can they advance their cause? By saying they couldn’t choose.

                  Some of us know it’s not a choice who our bodies respond to, but many people can choose, or realize THROUGH choosing out of straightness that they were GAY the whole time. It’s not so simple for many people and I understand why these movements helped and why some of the ideas are not loved now. But almost 90% of the time they are misunderstood or cherry picked.

                  [–]lairacunda 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                  Many people are bisexual and can indeed choose. But the GLM wasn't happening because SJ and the other political lesbians gave us all permission and modeling to walk away from heterosexuality. Homosex and sexuality had been happening underground for forever. If anything, I'd say Gay Liberation freed people from "compulsive heterosexuality" and political lesbians took their cue from the millions of LGBs who were walking away from these oppressive institutions and also modeled themselves after the lesbian community.

                  [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

                  i guess ur point is stop calling fauxbians polilez right? ok. :)

                  [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

                  Or for them to stop using political lesbian and comphet when they are literally still with men. Women call themselves political lesbians when they are literally with men, fuck that, and women call actual political lesbians trash who have spent years helping other women with their political movement, not necessarily being female homosexuals.

                  [–]lairacunda 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Hahaha, what goes around comes around.

                  [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                  I think this was insightful and illuminating. Sorry people are deliberately misunderstanding you. Thank you.

                  [–]Innisfree 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

                  Stop being common bitches and learn something about your history for fuck’s sake.

                  I just think we need to take a second and appreciate this more 😂

                  I also wish I could send this post to the women who coopted the term "political lesbian" to sing the virtues of lesbianism on twitter while hating on men. There seem to be so many of them.

                  All respect to Sheila Jeffreys but and only with hindsight, I just wish she named this concept "het-abstinence" to keep the focus on the fact that what is political is abstaining from heterosexuality, rather than getting lesbianism into it - it seems there's a logical step jumped here.

                  Edit: Ah, and just to add, lesbianism is inherently political - it's in the definition, we don't center men. (I think that was also highlighted in the '60s but I'm still a basic bitch and don't know my second wave history well enough :))

                  [–]oofreesouloo 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

                  lesbianism is inherently political - its in the definition, we don't center men.

                  Please, don't. By that logic, every sexual orientation is political lmao. Please, stop associating lesbianism with politics... Sexual orientation is not defined by what we do not center. It is rather defined by what we do center. Two different things.

                  [–]lairacunda 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Maybe it's more accurate to say that lesbianism is inherently politicized.

                  [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

                  I get it, perhaps I should've specified that my statement also comes in the context of European second wave feminism. When they used to say political they meant it not as political partisanship or being left or right, but rather a going against the politics of patriarchy if you will. And this was in the context of civil rights movements, overthrowing patriarchy, the 'blank slate' theory and the European '68 revolutionary spirit of saying that as a minority you are politicised (targeted by authorities) through no will of your own. So for them saying that their orientation was political was a way of taking back power and trying to change the narrative. Yes, those movements were imperfect and had a lot of misconceptions, but it is because they happened that we have more freedom now.

                  Edit: Oh and specifically to the point of "we don't center men". I am not implying that this is the definition. Coming back to what I said above, in the 60s lesbians saw themselves politicised, that is targeted because they do not center men. So they saw it as the reason they were politicised and consequently the very thing they fought - to be allowed to center women - that is be lesbians in peace. :)

                  [–]oofreesouloo 23 insightful - 2 fun23 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

                  Excuse me my bluntness, but I really don't care about the history of political lesbianism and all the 'why's'. I'm not a feminist and I'm not interested in being involved in it, though I recognize the importance of feminism in several (not all) aspects. I'm fed up of my sexual orientation, something that is just innate to me and that it just is because it is to be constantly associated with men, men, men for various reasons when it's actually the opposite. I'm a lesbian because I want, desire women, NOT because I do not want men. (EDIT: Obviously, not wanting men is part of being a lesbian, but it isn't the MAIN thing and it seems that many people are constantly preaching the idea that a lesbian is a lesbian because of bad experiences with men and center lesbianism around men all the time ugh)

                  You're totally free to see your sexual orientation the way it 'fits' you the most, just like I'm also free of not agreeing with a certain standpoint and despising political lesbianism.

                  [–]a_blue_bird 23 insightful - 2 fun23 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                  it seems that many people are constantly preaching the idea that a lesbian is a lesbian because of bad experiences with men and center lesbianism around men all the time

                  You can thank the political lesbians for that. They were the ones who proudly announced to the world that because men have been so horrible to them, they have now become lesbians. This is the image that they created for lesbians.

                  [–]oofreesouloo 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                  Totally, that's why I despise them so much. I upvoted your comment as well, it was very insightful but I wished I hadn't read that mess that is political lesbianism. God, I hate this post.

                  [–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  I know, it's so weird defining your lesbianism by what you don't want as opposed to what you do want.

                  [–]Innisfree 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                  No worries. I understand where you're coming from and I'd just like to point out you seem to think we disagree when we don't. I personally don't define lesbians as not liking men, I was discussing the historical context and the reasons why we find ourselves in a bit of a mess. Sorry I wasn't clear, painful subject, I should know.

                  Edit. I just realized you must think I'm a political lesbian because I said respect to Sheila Jeffrey's lol. I didn't know she was one, my respect was to her as a second wave feminist and an elder, not for her political lesbianism theory.

                  [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                  I’m not a political lesbian either, but I recognize that we all had to choose to come out, and that it was an option for us because of second wave feminists with ideas everyone now hates because the world changed enough for us to realize we are innately lesbian even if we took different paths to figure it out. I don’t believe we can actually choose which sex our bodies respond to, but I know a hell of a lot of choices go into becoming an open lesbian in the world, and many women are not so lucky.

                  [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                  Thank you. I wish women would stop misusing lesbian, political lesbian, and comphet. Hindsight is so important. No movement is perfect anyway, but it’s good to know what it is before condemning it or using it as a weapon. It seems like neither group is aware of what it was to women’s liberation and lesbian feminism, but consistently bring the terms up in arguments. We didn’t even have a TERM for “sexual harassment” yet, when these movements were blooming. We were not protected under law from being sexually harassed. Women involved in these groups changed the world.

                  [–]Innisfree 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  This!