RantDoes anyone else feel isolated/depressed because of how taboo it is to talk about the transgender movement's homophobia?

submitted by reluctant_commenter from (self.LGBDropTheT)

I'm sure the degree of social taboo varies by geographical region, but where I'm at, at least, anything other than reverent praise of the transgender rights movement seems to be regarded with hostility. I've been somewhat inactive on this sub recently, and thus missed seeing this lovely BBC article until today: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385 (archive link).

I'd love to share the article with some of my acquaintance, but I'm also hesitant to share it beyond a couple of close, trusted friends because I expect to be met with a wall of denial, rejection, anger and probably shaming as well. And I just don't know that I have the energy for all that right now. I'm still deciding what to do, but in thinking about all of this, I couldn't help observing how frustratingly isolating it feels to be in this position. To be gaslighted about this homophobia from LGBTQ-identified people-- people who are purportedly "in my own community"-- while also feeling stress at seeing and hearing this type of homophobia so widely celebrated.

Anyone else relate...? Sorry, I don't feel like I'm describing this well but just wanted to make a post about it because I figured at least one other person here probably does.

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[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This stuff is a big part of the reason I don't really have any friends anymore... so yes I can relate.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oof. Yeah, I feel that; sorry to hear you're in that position. Thanks for making your comment about it, I feel a little less alone.

I definitely think this topic has led me to be a lot more closed-off and guarded with the people around me than I otherwise would be, and has even led me to curtail or avoid forming friendships with some individuals who I might have otherwise been close with and feel a connection with. It makes me sad to think about, but I don't regret doing so because I am trying to protect myself.

[–]wendyokoopa1 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I forgot to add earlier you can't talk about it much In Canada to even your own doctor without possibly being shut down. I'm sick of it.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 22 insightful - 6 fun22 insightful - 5 fun23 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I don't socialize with other gay people (aside from my husband) so I don't experience the isolation you speak of. Fawning over trans exists for me only on social media. If the topic of trans comes up in real life, it is usually with some level of disdain ranging from "whatever, I don't understand it but you do you", through "I'm very sad for people with such mental illness", to "transwomen are shadow monsters from the pits of hell".

Tbf, in my personal life that last opinion is only openly expressed by myself and my husband.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fawning over trans exists for me only on social media.

That's good to hear, I'm glad you're in a position where trans-led homophobia is not something you hear IRL so much. Maybe I can try to create a similar environment for myself among people I know IRL; I'm just struggling to envision it, because the people I'm currently surrounded by are so blindly trans-affirmative, regardless of the topic.

to "transwomen are shadow monsters from the pits of hell".

I wouldn't go that far personally, I think many are just in pain and end up lashing out at others. I just wish we could talk about the ways in which some trans people are acting extremely homophobic.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think many are just in pain and end up lashing out at others.

That's a fair assessment, but it is also characteristic of people who have let themselves be wholly consumed by their shadows. Surely there is a human in pain underneath all of the dysfunction, but it is the demon who has possessed them that gets revealed to the world and is attempting to make the world in its image.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You and your husband are based.

[–]julesburm1891 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The whole thing is incredibly frustrating because I’ve never before watched so many otherwise reasonable and decent people fall for something so clearly wrong, harmful, and bigoted.

It reminds me of being 14 and watching a preacher shout a bunch of literal gibberish and pour oil on a stage four cancer patient’s head with the intent of curing her. Everyone else in the room was crying and mumbling a bunch of nonsense along with the preacher. And I’m just sitting there in my scratchy tights wondering how no one else seems to realize how utterly crazy it all is.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The whole thing is incredibly frustrating because I’ve never before watched so many otherwise reasonable and decent people fall for something so clearly wrong, harmful, and bigoted.

I completely, completely agree. It is so disheartening to watch. And it frustrates me because there are clear solutions but the risks of speaking out against it are huge.

It reminds me of being 14 and watching a preacher shout a bunch of literal gibberish and pour oil on a stage four cancer patient’s head with the intent of curing her. Everyone else in the room was crying and mumbling a bunch of nonsense along with the preacher. And I’m just sitting there in my scratchy tights wondering how no one else seems to realize how utterly crazy it all is.

That is the worst, lol. I've been in a couple of similar situations when I was growing up in religion... it really is insane, the extent to which people will eschew all logic and recognition of reality in favor of their in-group's beliefs.

[–]Cass 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Between woke sharia and actual sharia I'm depressed about everything that's going on.

[–]wendyokoopa1 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can I join you in that depression? The woke, the sharia, and the creepy men and women are truly killing me inside and killing my relationships with those I'm supposed to love and I can't speak on it and I'm so tired and they're gone.

[–]Cass 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

relationships

It's the horseshoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory I think both sides are going to become more and more extreme and it will be harder and harder for people like us (who try not maintain a balanced view) to exist in society because we'll be shunned by both. At least we have the internet and we know we're not alone.

[–]wendyokoopa1 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can at times see this. I already at times feel it.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There was a big argument about the BBC article in my friend group. I watched the argument take place on a variety of social media for a few days and it went absolutely nowhere and then they just stopped talking about it. I stayed out of it just watching. Figured out who I could trust to talk about this stuff with and who I couldn't, though that wasn't really surprising. The people I talked to after were surprised I agreed with them though.

I don't deal well with conflict in person so I tend to avoid arguments that will spill over to in person interactions. I generally don't bring up a subject without first having an idea of where that person stands on it. Especially in this day and age where having a disagreement over trans stuff with 1 person can quickly snowball into having a disagreement with a large number of people.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I stayed out of it just watching. Figured out who I could trust to talk about this stuff with and who I couldn't, though that wasn't really surprising.

That is very wise, nice job. I wish that I had been paying more attention around the time that the article came out, I could've done the same. I'm debating whether to show it to people I know; I suppose I could show it and downplay or hide my opinion, but then that's a choice, too.

I generally don't bring up a subject without first having an idea of where that person stands on it. Especially in this day and age where having a disagreement over trans stuff with 1 person can quickly snowball into having a disagreement with a large number of people.

That also sounds like a wise move in the long-term. That's actually part of why I'm so stressed at the idea of talking candidly about it (trans homophobia) with people I know IRL; it only takes one disgruntled, miscalculated conversation to inspire someone to leak that information, and possibly mess up the rest of my social relationships, some of which affect me materially as well as emotionally.

[–]MoutonelectriqueBland Straight ♀ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Looking at your username, I think we're from the same country or at least neighbouring countries. I always had some hope it wasn't as bad down here. On the other hand I do censor myself and first figure out what their opinion most likely is before I discuss these issues with people.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel less isolated than I would if I didn't already know that a few people I trust also see through this. Can't imagine having no one IRL to speak openly with this about. I'm not depressed because I know the truth will come out in its full onerous glory eventually as it always does with narcissstic abusers, but it is definitely less enjoyable to have a lot of progressive friends (a word I used to use to refer to myself as well) now than it used to be. I would still call myself progressive if it didn't automatically lump me in with the present insanity.

So I'm just doing what I can and waiting my friends out. They're fairly intelligent but also not really thinking too hard about what they are repeating—it doesn't affect 95% of them personally. So they mostly don't know.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel less isolated than I would if I didn't already know that a few people I trust also see through this. Can't imagine having no one IRL to speak openly with this about.

Yes, even just that helps a lot. I'm lucky to have one friend at least who has been accepting and supportive of me when I've talked to them about this; I've had to ease them into the topic, though. It doesn't really feel like anyone is "in my corner," so to speak, though, at least IRL (if it weren't for this community's existence I'd probably go crazy, lol). I'm glad you know of a few people like that.

So I'm just doing what I can and waiting my friends out. They're fairly intelligent but also not really thinking too hard about what they are repeating—it doesn't affect 95% of them personally. So they mostly don't know.

Yup... I'd say that's accurate of most of my friends/acquaintances I'm thinking of, too. I do think many are just well-meaning and don't realize how much harm they're perpetuating by neglecting to consider possible harms found in the transgender movement.

[–]Destresse🇨🇵 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I used to feel this way, but since then I've found a good number of lesbians/bi women from my country who are critical of the trans movement. So now my environment is way more gender critical than the other way around. It's only when I browse the internet that I see all the pro-trans stuff. And even then, YouTube only recommends gender critical stuff since that's what I've been watching lol. I don't have twitter/tumblr/instagram whatever other social network exists nowadays. So that helps avoiding it.

But I also don't frequent lesbian bars or lesbian events or anything, so I don't know the state of things in our irl community. I'm told things are relatively good, as long as you don't start a debate on the question lol.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I used to feel this way, but since then I've found a good number of lesbians/bi women from my country who are critical of the trans movement.

That is super awesome :) I remember you telling me some about that in the past! Maybe that is the way to go, lol. If it were just people on the internet being stupid and I had more support from people I know IRL, it probably wouldn't bother me so much, but that isn't the case for me right now, unfortunately.

[–]Destresse🇨🇵 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Haha, yes. I jumped on every single occasion I found to join a french gender critical network of people 😆

I think it might be harder for you Americans, since your country is the size of a continent lol. I suppose it doesn't make it easy to find each other.

[–]julesburm1891 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it might be harder for you Americans, since your country is the side of a continent

100%. Not only are we very large, our population distribution is incredibly spread out and uneven. (As in, the population of New York City alone is more than the combined populations of Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, Idaho, and Utah combined.) Compounding that, outside some places in the northeast and California, our big cities are spaced pretty far apart. (For example, I live in smaller city with around 300,000 people. Big city A is five hours from us. Big City B is 6 hours from us. The closest big cities to A and B are 4 and 6 hours, respectively.)

Gender critical people in NYC, LA, and Chicago (our three biggest cities) might be able to make connections, but it’s going to get increasingly difficult to make those connections the smaller you get. (None of this even takes into consideration that we’re hyper politically-divided and the left has made gender ideology a plank of their essences. A lot of people who agree with us aren’t going to say anything because they don’t want to sound “conservative.”)

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because USA is an union of several states rather than a country per se. And because of the bigness of population and geographic size, any big city is like a country on its own, and you need to live in one, to get all you need close to you, in terms of dating opportunities and finding like minded people. I think the only place where I would enjoy living there is New York city, which is full of italian-americans

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I have my best friend, and my dad, who know this is all bullshit, so I’m not afraid to express my opposition to transgenderism to them. The only problem: both these men are straight. I don’t know any other gay or bisexual person, except for my sister (bi), a neighbour (bi male) and a friend of my brother and my best friend's brother (gay). The first two are fully on board with transgender rights and would be furious if they learned how I feel about the issue. As for the gay man I know as an acquaintance, well, I don’t know his stance on the matter. It would be nice to meet other gay and bisexual people, especially gay and bi men, who see things the way I see with regards to transgenderism. Those are the kinda men I want to date.

[–]wendyokoopa1 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You sound like me except I'm female. Most people I wind up encountering are supportive of trans rights to the point where women can't even have a dating/attraction preference without it being harmful to the trans community

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry to hear that.

[–]wendyokoopa1 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I got the gas light of implants really save lives and you can't have a preference when you eat margarine

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm glad you have your best friend and dad to talk to at least, that's awesome. I also am having trouble finding support from LGB people IRL.

It would be nice to meet other gay and bisexual people, especially gay and bi men, who see things the way I see with regards to transgenderism. Those are the kinda men I want to date.

Yeah exactly! I think I'm in a similar boat; I would love to date a gay/bisexual women who has a similar view of the transgender rights movement as I do, or at the very least who is supportive of me even if she doesn't agree fully. I have avoided dating partly because it seems like these women are nowhere to be found... or maybe they're just hiding like I am.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hopefully you will find a woman who understands and respects your stance on the matter. For now, I’m just glad there are two people I know who are fully in agreement with me on the matter. My mother and a cousin of mine support transgender rights, but they are very critical of the movement and believe you should have a right to refuse to date them.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you, I really hope so, too.

[–]winterwillow 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not sure I feel depressed, but yes I do feel very isolated irl. It’s hard knowing that the groups, communities, events etc. that should be a place for me to ‘be myself’ is the last place I feel like I can be myself. I can’t imagine showing up, most likely the only ‘cis-lesbian’ (I know this because I check these groups insta/fb sometimes) and a feminist who loves discussion and can’t remember people’s pronouns. Feels like I’ll out myself as a terf within an hour lol. Of course I could lie and pull various victim cards or keep my mouth shut, but then what’s the point?

One of my friends recently moved back closer to me though, and I saw on insta she follows a ‘known terf’ in my country so I have some hope for her, but then she’s straight so she might not really see the full impact of the issue.

[–]wendyokoopa1 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I can relate as well. It's harming my irl family relationships among others and my overall sense of self.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I relate too, it feels so overwhelming and unavoidable. I feel like I'm drowning and everyone around me is just frolicking in the waves like it's normal. Stepping away just makes it feel even bigger cus then the gender woo invades my real life when I'm not expecting it :( feels like the only way to avoid the topic is be completely closeted so people don't bring up "kweer stuff" with me.

[–]wendyokoopa1 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Same. I'm just literally a mess that can't put my stuff into words properly sometimes

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Guys I so relate to you both. Both in terms of putting stuff into words, like you just said, and what u/hufflepuff-poet said about feeling like you're drowning while everyone else is frolicking in the waves, and the "overall sense of self" part. Thank you both for commenting, makes me feel less alone.

I hardly know how to talk about this but I feel like it should be talked about. I'm not sure what to do to counter it... try and have more LGB positivity posts and messaging about it being OK to talk about these topics? I feel bad for feeling this way, lol, which is partly why I made the post-- the trans rights movement's core message shames LGB people for feeling and reacting this way, and tries to hide the very reality of our existence (of same-sex attraction).

[–]wendyokoopa1 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes

[–]wendyokoopa1 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

All I do recently is abuse my poor mom and sob about it, I know I need a counselor but the cost overwhelming unless they take odsp or ohip.

Also jokingly if your clinic uses words like awesome sauce avoid it

[–]HelloMomo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

As an aggressively shy person, I don't talk about it much with people I don't already know. I've found a nice discord group of gender critical les/bi girls, who are also funny, interesting people overall, and that has boosted my moral tremendously. On a day-to-day level, it's easy to believe we're heading in a good direction. I mean, the BBC seems to be peaking, new exposé books are coming out regularly.

But every time I take a step out of my regular circle, and I get slapped in the face with an unpleasant remember how many people still believe in it. And it feels oddly anachronistic to me. Like, Really? You still think that? God, that's so basic, that's so high school.

But it does happen, periodically. For example: I'm currently taking an ASL class at the local community college. In class, I sit by 2 girls who I've known from day one weren't straight, but it was just gaydar until last week. Last week was relationship vocabulary, and so that was the day we "came out" to each other, because we were specifically in the context to making up truthful practice sentences on the topic of relationships. It was some kind of bonding experience, I guess, because one of them ended up inviting the other two of us to get some food after class, and we were hanging out. But because you can't put 3 young gay/bi people together without The Topic coming up within the hour. One of them calls herself nonbinary, the other doesn't, but is totally on board with it. I held my ground, I didn't antagonize, I didn't outright say "I don't believe in that bullshit," but I also told the story about how I was dysphoric at 13/14, how I don't request pronouns of anyone because I think that's kinda OCD behavior, and how I think the concept of "cis people" is fundamentally flawed because there's no evidence that the majority of the population actually does feel totally comfortable in their bodies and chill with gender roles. (It's also worth mentioning, now, that they're both younger than me, something I didn't know before but which became glaring that day. I'm 22, while they're both 18. When I was 18, I hadn't peaked yet either.)

Honestly though, I think it was the most civil convo I've ever had on the topic with someone I disagree with, and I'm kinda proud of myself for it.

[–]Rag3 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m glad that conversation went well. Good job holding your own!

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've found a nice discord group of gender critical les/bi girls, who are also funny, interesting people overall, and that has boosted my moral tremendously.

Wait, that sounds awesome! Is that discord I could join lol? No pressure, just curious.

On a day-to-day level, it's easy to believe we're heading in a good direction. I mean, the BBC seems to be peaking, new exposé books are coming out regularly.

That's very true. Things are looking up. I feel like I'm living this sort of irony where, even as things get better, I feel more comfortable admitting to myself how disturbed I feel about things having been so messed up.

But because you can't put 3 young gay/bi people together without The Topic coming up within the hour.

RIGHT?! This has been my experience as well. I've actually taken to avoiding conversations about LGBT topics at all with other LGB people just because I don't want to deal with someone getting angry at me. I hate that I have this response but simultaneously, I think my fears about having my relationships damaged and potentially being socially shunned are legitimate; there are a lot of people in the trans rights movement who advocate behaving this way towards someone who is at all critical of the movement.

That is super awesome that that conversation went well, I applaud you for it. I've grown nervous about the conversation topic being broached just because I've witnessed IRL how hostile some people get if you make a comment that even hints at "not toeing the party line." I totally hear you on the age thing. Even just a couple of years can make a huge difference in terms of changing one's opinions.

[–]7874 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't go on rants, but I'm honest. If someone tries to ask me what my pronouns are, I politely tell them "sorry, I don't believe in that ideology." I try to avoid talking about trans people in the first place, but if they come up, I do "misgender." Consequences be damned.

I haven't been challenged yet, but if I do, homophobia will be the first thing I bring up.

[–]7874 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, I want to add that I don't think enough is said about the homophobia behind "truscum" transsexualism and HSTSs as "real" transsexuals/trans people. The "kweeer" crazies are a problem because they're our enemies, but actual homosexuals are being completely destroyed by transsexualism.

[–]Rag3 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’ve pretty much told all of my closest friends how I feel about the racism and homophobia within the trans movement so I could share this article without many problems. Some stay quiet and let me vent while others agree.

I’m sorry you can’t talk about it with everybody comfortably.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's awesome you're able to talk about it with your close friends. Maybe starting with small things could be a possibility for me. Thank you, I appreciate it.