Announcing /s/Gender_Critical : Gender

submitted 4 years ago by [deleted] from self.Gender_Critical

So, I was messaged and offered mod ability on this sub, and I decided I may as well take the offer. Since then I've been thinking about what I actually want to do with the sub.

What I've decided is that it will be an international women's sub for discussing topics related to gender and female prosperity. My thought process for this decision is below, and more information is in the sub sidebar.

This means I will be taking it off of s/all, and I will be removing content and accounts known to be male. Aside from that I plan to moderate the sub according to the pyramid of debate as per SaidIt policy.

My thought process for this decision:

Well, I'm not happy with what I perceive as censorship by GC, so what would it be if it were actually true to its purpose without extra ideological censorship? Well it's called "Gender Critical." And as I understand it, the sub came into being as women with more radical feminist positions (against pornography, thought feminism should fight for female people not feminine people, against prostitution) were pushed out of feminist spaces, where the most hostility came regarding the transgender issue.

I guess that makes sense why it kept a lot of the censorship on other topics commonly censored in feminist spaces.

What censorship was I unhappy with? Censorship about the rest of the progressive stack. Protected/degraded race & ethnicity, LGB dogma. I guess those are supposed to be "feminist" stances.

I guess I could make a sub that's basically GC but either with less censorship of certain topics, or a clearer statement of what ideas are censored.

Or I could make a sub that allows less censored discussion of GC topics in general. In the GCdebatesQT sub people would give their complaints about GC sometimes. That there wasn't actually very much gender criticism going on there. I also didn't like on GC how it seemed like you couldn't just talk about gender freely. What is it? What's going on with it? Why are humans behaving the way they are? What is scientific stuff people have done to explore it? You can't talk freely about this on GC and you can't in TRA-compliant spaces either.

So what would the topics be? If GC started as a place for a certain branch of feminism that had been pushed out... I guess the topic is really "feminism". This just sounds like the debate sub. It sounds like I just want the debate sub to exist. Hmm.

I think I want the sub to be a place for women. I think I'd feel like I was kinda turning my back on GC if I made it a general open discussion space with a name like Gender Critical, especially since it was a guy who gave me the sub. And I think I want it to be less censored, and allow women to more openly discuss topics I think the narrative is being controlled on.

I think I don't want to make it a less censored version of Gender Critical feminism. I think the premise that there is no biological basis for any gendered behavior is false, and while there's a lot of truth to it I think framing the discussion as being "critical" of gender in this way may be part of a broader attack to undermine healthy ethnic traditions, kindof like this for adults.

So I guess I'll make it women-only, and take it off /t/all. But won't it just turn into a general "feminism" then? And what about the problem with liberal feminism? Won't it just turn into a free-for-all? Maybe not. Maybe not if there are only women there. If we're only hearing women's opinions.

I think I'll make it "Women's Intercommunity Gender and Female Prosperity Discussion". The "Gender Critical" name won't be quite accurate but I'll list the name it should be in the sidebar. I'll moderate it according to the pyramid of debate and have a few things that are on-topic.

So what topics are on-topic? * discussion and information about gender, sex roles, that kind of thing, including transgenderism * sustaining and improving a good situation for women: discussion, information, news

This seems a decent use for the sub.

18 comments

all 18 comments

new insightful fun

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (10 children)

[–]Yayme 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun - 4 years ago* (9 children)

I prefer women only. I do think when you allow men, you either get a bunch of MRAs who want to have the same debate over and over, or you get a bunch of “white knights” with their benevolent sexism who think we need them to defend us. Or even worse, you get pick me chicks sucking up to the men.

I don’t know how active I’ll be though. I don’t fit in rad feminism- I’m a capitalist, I also let my daughter wear makeup, and shave, and I’m Catholic. But I’m also not sure how well I’ll fit here.

Edit to add: Yah, I won’t fit in here. I looked through your ideology list, and while I am Catholic, I’m not in to biblical submissiveness.

I feel like, even as a business owner I’ll have more in common with those Marxist’s, than I will with women who follow Jordan “women are swamp creatures” Peterson.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (8 children)

[–]Yayme 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun - 4 years ago (7 children)

Well, with a sub this small, obviously it will fall mostly on you to provide content to build the sub. And it looks a lot like the red pill women’s sub right now. And that’s not something I’ll engage with.

I mean, you be you... if that’s what makes you happy then have at it. I’m just never going to subscribe to the belief that women are born to be “second mates” while men are born to “captain.”

And I think living your life expecting a man to provide for you socially and financially is always going to be a lopsided relationship, that puts women on the losing end. I think it’s short sighted to believe that millions of women marched and fought for the right to live a life free of those types of expectations and relationships for no reason.

It’s funny that traditionally conservative women and Marxists have so much in common - disdain for porn and overt displays of female sexuality... but also have so many differences - namely who should be “in charge” of a woman.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (6 children)

I'm surprised to hear it sounds like a "red pill women's" forum to you. And that's fine if you don't want to engage, I would encourage everybody to keep their time and energy focused where it is most beneficial for them. I would sincerely hate to find out I'd helped a woman waste her time here. :(

I made the sub because of topics that were censored on r/GC, that I was unhappy to see censored. Some of those topics seemed like they were intentionally participating in suppressing information not at all related to GC or radical feminism or anything. Some because I just don't personally think they're true at this moment and would like to be able to have open discussion about them, without feeling like I need to take an ideological line.

Personally I hadn't intended to make any post arguing that women should be "helpmeets" to a male "captain". I'm more trying to free myself from what I view as a dogmatic position that GC has held. What if we find women are usually gifted at X or Y mental activity in a surprising and unexpected way? What if we find out women's abilities are way more plastic and the result of life experience than thought? I mean sure, we might find out women are all super dumb and should try to act dumber than they are, idk. But we can't even discuss these things on GC because of what I view as a dogmatic stance. And I don't like that. I want to be able to actually discuss these things openly.

I do want women who believe that "helpmeet" to "captain" stuff to be able to speak freely here, because I think they are unable to in lots of women's spaces... and they're women, for goodness sakes! I also want women who strongly disagree with that to be able to speak here. I want to be able to talk to each other. To share opinions. I want there to be a space for women where all these opinions are present, so that a woman can read and decide for herself what she thinks makes sense, instead of it being decided by a moderator. Not to fight with each other, but to have a place where these opinions can all be voiced, where we can find common ground. Maybe where we can work for all women while allowing all women a voice and supporting each other where it makes sense, without imposing ideology on anyone, or having to compromise our own to participate.

Again, thanks for replying. It's nice to know if this space doesn't work for you (and presumably other women like you), and why.

[–]luckystar 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun - 4 years ago (1 child)

I'm not the person you are replying to, but I am a far left progressive woman who agrees with much of GC but just kinda feels like they go too far off the deep end of transphobia (stuff like mocking trans women for looking mannish and ugly for instance, or even disapproving of people like Blaire White and Buck Angel who are imo have a very challenging mental condition that they've managed extremely well and if anything are examples of how people can be trans without necessarily hurting women). For that reason among others I can't say I'm truly GC, just a generic feminist that has some opinions that literally only GC spaces are talking about.

I also find it frustrating when I hear about a very relevant issue displaying the conflict between trans rights and women's rights but there are no "neutral-ish" sources, and I'd be interested in finding a way to deal with this, either by starting a new website that isn't dripping in charged terms like "autogenyphilic predatory TIMs" and "mutilated axe wound penis", but rather talks about these very real issues in a way that won't make left leaning people immediately go "ew, TERF" and promptly reject the information out of hand.

For instance-- the "non binary lesbian" who tells detractors to suck his "girldick" lobbying to dismantle protections for women in the NY Democratic party and even taking the space of a "Female Leadership" position of the party. This is NOT "woke" or good, it is blatantly a privileged white male trying to use trans ideology to undo decades of women's rights work. Most left leaning people who hear about this issue will agree that some activists have crossed the line (I tested by telling people around me). However I didn't want to link to any websites that are openly "radical feminist" because they WILL dismiss it as "TERF propaganda" out of hand and thus disconnect from the conversation. There are NO other sources. A few radfem blogs and places like Lipstick Alley and one New York based LGBT blog post phrasing the situation in a positive tone (something like "dismantling the gender binary and including non binary folxxx in politics"). I know MSM won't touch anything that could be negative towards anything vaguely "trans" related but imo this NEEDS to be addressed somewhere in a way that doesn't malign all trans people, if nothing else because we need to help more people understand what the problem is and potential allies are going to be turned off by "TERF websites" if that makes sense.

Sorry for hijacking this thread to basically rant lol I've been pretty frustrated lately

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (0 children)

some opinions that literally only GC spaces are talking about

Yeah that's a good reminder that a lot of stuff is just hard to talk about anywhere else. Does this include stuff besides the trans issue?

For instance-- the "non binary lesbian" who tells detractors to suck his "girldick" lobbying to dismantle protections for women in the NY Democratic party and even taking the space of a "Female Leadership" position of the party. This is NOT "woke" or good, it is blatantly a privileged white male trying to use trans ideology to undo decades of women's rights work. Most left leaning people who hear about this issue will agree that some activists have crossed the line (I tested by telling people around me)

That surprises me actually! I would have thought people would have been on board with it.

I didn't want to link to any websites that are openly "radical feminist" because they WILL dismiss it as "TERF propaganda" out of hand and thus disconnect from the conversation.

Yes, I've had this experience. I didn't understand why people felt so uncomfortable with feministcurrent.

I also find it frustrating when I hear about a very relevant issue displaying the conflict between trans rights and women's rights but there are no "neutral-ish" sources, and I'd be interested in finding a way to deal with this, either by starting a new website that isn't dripping in charged terms like "autogenyphilic predatory TIMs" and "mutilated axe wound penis", but rather talks about these very real issues in a way that won't make left leaning people immediately go "ew, TERF" and promptly reject the information out of hand.

That sounds like a valuable resource. I bet a lot of people would really appreciate less polarizing content on this issue.

I feel, idk, like I understand the political polarization stuff more since covid happened. I feel like I keep repeating myself but whatever. The masks issue. Back in January it was not a political issue. Now it is. The whole thing has become so politicized. We should know much more now about the actual hard facts but with the absolute deluge of information and opinions about it, it's difficult to just find the facts. I feel like a similar thing has happened in may other issues too that have become politicized, trans being one of them. It would be nice to just stick to the facts and figure out something that makes sense and works and is fair to everyone.

[–]Yayme 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago* (3 children)

I have to admit, I'm curious to know what drew you to GC in the first place. Because the quote below is not all that dissimilar from "I want to wear a dress and makeup, therefore I am a woman."

Kind of one of the most basic principals of Gender Critical is to be Critical of Gender Roles. So believing that ALL women would ever be better at X or Y is the belief in a Gender Role. Whether X or Y is raising babies and cooking dinner, or writing code and running businesses. You are saying that you believe Gender Roles are real, and innate.

And I'm not a brain surgeon, so I'm not going to act like I know what anyone's brain looks like. I know Gina Rippon is a professor of cognitive neuroimaging, and she said gendered brains are junk science.

I have a wide range of interests and skills and hobbies. And I didn't develop them because of my vulva. And honestly, I would be surprised if you are interested in whatever it is you're interested in just because you have an inny instead of an outie between your legs.

"What if we find women are usually gifted at X or Y mental activity in a surprising and unexpected way? "

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (2 children)

I can try to explain more if you'd like, but I'm having a bit of a hard time reading your tone here.

I'm not here to fight with anyone, to convince, or to be convinced, or whatever. I want this to be a place where we can work together positively without feeling like we're imposing on each other or being imposed on. I want this to be a place where everyone can state their perspective openly and can take from the conversations whatever they each find useful.

If biological sex has no influence on social behaviors, then I want to believe that. If it has some influence, then I want to understand that, whatever it is. I don't like feeling like I have to take any dogmatic position, and I want this to be an environment where other women don't have to either. I want us all to be free to think for ourselves and to discuss openly but without pressure here. That's all I'm saying.

[–]Yayme 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (1 child)

Sorry, my kid tells me I'm terrible at texting because I always sound mad. I did upvote all your comments to try to show I was engaging in good faith discourse. Maybe I should use more emojis? :-D

Like I said, I don't really fit in with Radical Feminism, because I'm a Christian, and I own my own business, and we have a big house, and a cleaning lady, and all that stuff. And they're all Marxists. So I was thinking maybe this was a sub for people who were critical of gender roles, but who were not full blown Marxists. But... not I'm thinking maybe that's not it. Maybe you want to debate?

The announcement was more like a stream of consciousness than anything, so it was a bit hard to follow. But I'm thinking this is the meat of it?

This just sounds like the debate sub. It sounds like I just want the debate sub to exist. Hmm.

Anyway, I subscribed when I first found the place. And I'm not going to unsubscribe. I'll go ahead and engage with topics that interest me. But I'm probably not interested in debating my beliefs anymore. I'm old. Aint nobody got time for that :-D

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun - 4 years ago (0 children)

lol you can communicate how you like. I just wasn't sure where you were trying to take the conversation, I suppose.

The announcement was more like a stream of consciousness than anything, so it was a bit hard to follow. But I'm thinking this is the meat of it?

Hm. Well I'm not always as clear a writer as I'd like.

So I was thinking maybe this was a sub for people who were critical of gender roles, but who were not full blown Marxists. But... not I'm thinking maybe that's not it. Maybe you want to debate?

I want women who are critical of gender roles and who are not full blown marxists to feel welcome here. (And it's my impression they would be on GC too, btw. I don't think they're all 100% full-blown marxists, especially because they tend to criticize the expectation that women put everyone else's needs before women's needs in activism.)

I don't mean it to be specifically for that though. I want it to be a place that welcomes all women, regardless of ideology or life situation or whatever. I suppose the sidebar is a bit long, but that's where I really tried to spell out what the sub is meant for. And maybe "debate" is kinda close but I mean it to be for discussion more than debate. I'd rather just share perspectives and learn from each other without feeling any need to correct each other or whatever. Sometimes I think it's easier to learn in a less confrontational way anyway.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun - 4 years ago (2 children)

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun - 4 years ago (1 child)

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun - 4 years ago (0 children)

[–]Tea 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (3 children)

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun - 4 years ago (2 children)

[–]Tea 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (1 child)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 4 years ago (0 children)

Hm.

Yeah, I've had this instinct that women are "safer" than men somehow when... that often is not the case. Women can be abusive. Women can be pedophiles. I don't think it does women any favor to be let off the hook for this, either.

what's the point? Like not in theory, in reality.

Welllll. I guess "in reality" we'll have to see. I just really would rather hear women's opinions. We can't dismiss them as "oh that's just a man's opinion on this, he's just trying to keep women down because of his own interests". I mean, yes, men can influence women who come speak here too. But I think there's something meaningful about just hearing the perspectives of other women.

There are a lot of things I really like about GC. The female atmosphere was one of them, but I know it left out a lot of the voices of a lot of women because it was feminist and radical feminist about that. I want to hear from those women.

And I also don't want to hear from /s/testing_sub3, y'know? Or if I do, I want it to be because a woman went there and believes it... I want to know what she gets out of it, why she thinks it, etc.

That's my thinking, anyway. I also don't want to participate in helping a man turn GC away from a focus on women, if that's what the person who gave me this sub was attempting to do.