A question for the community.

submitted by [deleted] from (self.GenderCritical)

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[–]NeedMoreCoffee 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

The reason ive been against changing your sex on id from the start. Those idiots don't tell people who they are and shit like this happens

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-births-stillborn-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

All trans but especially the TIFs have serious increased risk of heart failure and strokes. There is going to be a lot of unnecessary deaths from transpeople soon. Then they can all whine how medicine is lacking for transpeople while they all signed wavers and were told that this shit is experimental and they decided to change sex on their ID.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

Those idiots don't tell people who they are and shit like this happens

Because of transgender broken arm syndrome... There have been literal reports of people coming in with a broken arm, and their doctor wants to do mental gymnastics to blame HRT.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 19 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

Doctors are there to do their fucking job. If a young person comes in with a broken arm and they are on medication that might affect bone strenght they will do follow ups. I had that happen and i'm not trans.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITH CHRONIC HEALTH ISSUES OR WHO ARE ON MEDICATIONS HAVE TO DO THE WHOLE MEDICAL HISTORY ALL THE DAMN TIME. BECAUSE ITS A DOCTORS JOB TO MAKE SURE YOU ARENT GOING TO DROP DEAD NEXT WEEK FROM SOME PREVENTABLE CONDITION.

You lot don't even understand basic biology most of the time so how about you let the doctor you went to see do their job without being an entitled brat. And just cause some moron at pink news made up some word salad "trans broken arm syndrome" to whine about it doesn't mean it's a thing. That is not even what syndrome means stop butchering the bloody language. Stop making up words. Stop appropriating illnesses.

If they take care of trans like they would any other patient you lot take issue. If they treat you special you lot take issue. If they don't treat you you lot take issue. Make up your damn minds what you want.

No one needs to deal with that shit, especially not during a bloody pandemic. Seriously.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

If a young person comes in with a broken arm and they are on medication that might affect bone strenght they will do follow ups. I had that happen and i'm not trans.

Great, the fundamental problem is that HRT strengthens bones: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

You lot don't even understand basic biology most of the time

Well, since HRT is often made difficult to access for many transgender people. A lot of transgender people have to study the intricacies of how hormones are processed in the body so that they can do the appropriate calculations to dose their estrogen (or testosterone) correctly.

Which, in order to accomplish that, involves a more profound understanding of biology that makes it abundantly clear that on a biochemical level men and women have more in common than they differ.

Again, if men and women were so dramatically different as you claim, they would need a men-only vaccine and a women-only vaccine for the covid virus, now wouldn't they?

If they take care of trans like they would any other patient you lot take issue. If they treat you special you lot take issue. If they don't treat you you lot take issue. Make up your damn minds what you want.

Have you ever considered that the transgender population is full of individuals who all have their own separate opinions? There is no transgender hive mind... for that matter since you are keen to label transgender ideology a cult... wouldn't this be evidence that instead of following a singular doctrine, like a cult, the transgender population is allowed to have their own independent thoughts?

No one needs to deal with that shit, especially not during a bloody pandemic. Seriously.

Well, the irony of the situation is that until trump and his supporters explicitly went out of their way to bring transgender care to the forefront of everyone's minds... nobody was dealing with it. Ironically, it is because of other's visceral hatred of us (including members of this sub) that the rest of society has looked at your ilk's actions in horror and decide to rally in support of us.

Good job, you played yourself.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Ok, you claim that you came here to inform yourself of gender critical views. That's not what's going on. You've made every attempt possible to do everything EXCEPT for sit and listen.

This is NOT a debate sub. This is NOT a place where you should look for sympathy for causes. You are NOT providing useful information, in fact-- you've basically just pulled the same meme bullshit of using suicide as a means of threatening your way into our spaces after you went to a singular shitty therapist. I don't know how much I buy into the bullshit of not meeting the DSM-5 criteria for depression, because that's not difficult criteria to meet. Your first line of actual medicine treatment was estrogen, instead of looking at any other reasonable option. And you know what? Your excited statement over growing breasts was frankly extremely fucking disturbing, thanks for that.

You would be welcomed with open arms at the debate sub, where you can post pseudoscience and look for validation until your heart's content.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Both estrogen and testosterone build bone mass and density in puberty and adolescence - the key time of life when we develop bone strength - and one or the other is required to maintain bone strength later in life in both sexes. However, it's important to keep in mind that even amongst trans people taking cross-sex hormones, males will generally have higher bone mass and density than females if they went through the puberty of adolescence. I say generally because it appears that in adolescent puberty females' pelvic bones become stronger than males'.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15746999/

https://www.verywellhealth.com/bone-health-gender-5083699

Today, a growing number of trans-identified young people of both sexes were put on puberty blockers at or before Tanner Stage II, and as a result many will not have developed normal bone mineralization, length, mass & strength during the puberty of adolescence. Only if they started taking cross-sex hormones as well at a very early age (8-9 for females, 10-11 for males) will they have had a chance to build bones in the the normal range. Although here again, significant sex differences seem to come into play.

For example, the data released by the Tavistock GIDS in the UK about the kids it has put on puberty blockers showed that females whose puberty was blocked ended up with less long bone growth- and thus were shorter in height - than would have been the case had they gone through puberty. Similarly, because girls & boys go through their bone growth spurts at different stages of puberty - for girls it's at the start, for boys it's much later - and coz of the role that sex hormones play in fusing the long bones and thus stopping them from growth, it looks like some boys who've had their puberty blocked will be taller than average. Which is consistent with what happened with the castrati.

Yet even in the case of puberty-blocked kids who were put on CSH early, the males will still be ahead of females in terms of bone development because of the puberty of infancy - when male babies' T rises to adolescent pubertal levels and female babies E rises as well but not to a correspondingly high degree.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You made a point that taking cross-sex hormones "strengthen bones" in "transgender people." In response, I posted information fleshing out the situation, and speaking directly to the issue of bone health issues in a specific subgroup of the transgender population, namely all the young people of both sexes who since the mid-late 1990s have been put on drugs like Lupron to stop puberty in an effort to make it easier for them to better mimic the appearance of the opposite sex later on. This is a part of the "transgender community" that has grown enormously in the current century, and is continuing to grow as I write this.

In turn, all you can say is

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

Wow, the solipsism. You seem to think the convo here is all about you, and only information that is personally relevant to you is worth posting & reading.

In another post, you told me that I must have "contempt" and "hatred of trangender people" in general because you've decided I have "a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole." But now you say you're the one who doesn't give a crap about all the trans-identified minors who've been put on the "Dutch protocol" that TRAs and the vocal community of older TIMs like you around the world have been demanding become standard for kids with "gender dysphoria" as young as age 8. Coz what happens to them isn't directly "relevant to a transgender person" in your exact circumstances and age group.

Meanwhile, on this thread you also implied that simply because of when you happened to be born, you are endowed with far more empathy than anyone of any previous generations has ever experienced or displayed. Well, you sure could've fooled me.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

A lot of transgender people have to study the intricacies of how hormones are processed in the body so that they can do the appropriate calculations to dose their estrogen (or testosterone) correctly.

Which, in order to accomplish that, involves a more profound understanding of biology

LOL. Evidence please.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's called DIY HRT, if transgender people are prevented access to doctors to guide their HRT, most will just take matters into their own hands. Find their own source of estrogens or testosterone and transition without medical assistance.

Similar to how, when abortion is made illegal, women will take matters into their own hands to abort children.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I grew up in the US before abortion was legal, and know/knew women who had to "take matters into their own hands." I've travelled to countries where abortion is illegal, and have known many women who came from such countries and emigrated to Europe, the UK or North America. Many have had hair-raising "DIY experiences. But I've never, ever heard any of them claim that getting, or performing, an ad hoc abortion has equipped them or anyone else with or

involves a more profound understanding of biology

Than, say, health care professionals and people who've actually studied biology, medicine, reproductive health, pre-natal development, sex differences, etc and/or who've kept abreast of the ongoing findings in these areas.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The association with DIY abortions is to give you a more relatable situation where "When the need is great enough, people will take matters into their own hands, doctor or not." It is not meant to have anything to do with the relative knowledge necessary to carry out each DIY task.

Transgender HRT is not a thoroughly researched area of medicine. As such, it does not take a lot to reach a point where someone is on-par with or more advanced in understanding than an endocrinologist. There have been a few endocrinologists & family doctors who offer HRT that either point to or even praise information shared amongst the transgender community as more qualitative than what is available in formal medical circles.

For the sake of understanding where this claim of knowledge greater than health care professionals comes from, suspend your own personal views on gender identity theory for a moment. I'm trying to highlight the pragmatics of the situation in which ideology might make overly complicated to explain.

To be clear that's not a criticism of formal medicine though. The symptoms of dysphoria being as intense as they are, provide the transgender community a sense of urgency and/or willingness to experiment in a way that most medical ethics boards probably would not be willing to approve in a formal setting. As such more formal medicine is lagging behind.

Formal medical circles have nothing to gain from urgency and everything to lose. Transgender people have everything to gain and nothing to lose from urgent and more exploratory experimentation. If we do nothing, we'll eventually succumb to a particularly bad bout of dysphoria and die by our own hands. If we attempt something and fuck up, usually that outcome will be a happier existence than death. If we get it right then, great, we get to have the same baseline of content living as a cis-gendered individual (at least if we ignore potential discrimination).

This is why my original comment on this thread was "We need more research to know anything useful." Currently, the field of knowledge on transgender care is so shallow that it does not take a whole lot to get to a level that is on par with medical professionals.