Gender Identity, Male Homophobia, and Sexual Politics | Women Are Human

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[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I'm quite sceptical that transphobia (i.e. the hate of trans identified people for the fact of them identifying with the opposite sex) exist as such. I think the transphobic crimes (the actual murders, not the "misgendering" and the "deadnaming") are really a product of homophobia.

I'm even more skeptical that most of "the actual murders" of TIMs are a product of homophobia, particularly when we look at the homicides that occur in the US. Most TIMs who die of homicide in the US are killed by other men they know well and have had intimate relationships of some duration with, not by homophobic strangers who were hoodwinked into thinking these men were women and then got angry for being fooled and were filled with homophobic shame and horror about having had sex with another man.

As the author argue in this article, men are unconfortable with effeminacy in other men.

Yeah, I hear this all the time, but I'm not sure I buy it. Fact is, most TIMs are not particularly "effeminate." They are histrionic, narcissistic, unstable, extremely vain, looks-obsessed, attention-seeking, superficial, quick to take offense, prone to lashing out at others, often violently, with hair-trigger tempers - yes. But do they behave in the ways that women characteristically do? Nah.

Also, I've known lots of guys since the 1950s with low-key, non-confrontational, people-pleasing, polite, soft-spoken, shy and retiring personalities who do things like cry often and easily, write poetry, cook, bake, care for kids and elders, clean, knit, crochet, hook rugs, sew, do pottery, style hair, do makeup, are into decorating and interior design, swoon over fabric swatches, and live for throwing dinner parties and aren't into playing or following macho sports or playing one-upmanship with the guys and so on. Those are men who truly have qualities that are commonly thought to be more characteristic of women than men. In other words, they are guys who could be accurately described as "effeminate" than most TIMs and flamboyant queens from the gay world. Yet other men have never seemed to have a problem with them. My dad, FIL, uncles and several of their friends were such guys. They were WW2 veterans, and all had successful careers in business or academia, but they were marshmallows in so many ways and all had many "feminine" interests. No one excoriated them for it.

Turning to the issue of whether TIMs subjected to violence supposedly coz they are "effeminate" or "gender non-conforming": In the US, many homicides of TIMs are committed by their live-in partners or roommates with whom they've had a history of domestic violence, and who have never had a problem with how these TIMs "present" or behave. Most TIMs who die of homicide have long been involved in dodgy, often criminal activities; have high rates of mental illness, substance abuse, unemployment, homelessness, poverty, and histories of violence and incarceration.

Men in a country with a high rate of male-on-male homicide like the US don't need the extra fuel of homophobia to attack and kill each other. Yes, male homophobia against gay males still exists in countries like the US. But it doesn't seem to be causing a lot of men to go out and physically attack or murder gay men. Homophobia might be an aggravating factor that comes into play and gets expressed at some point in a physical altercation between two men, but it's not usually the prime motivation for the violent acts that result in TIM homicides - other kinds of beefs between males are. Sometimes the guy who ends up dead in these altercations is the one who started the fight with the guy who ends up killing him, so it's not true to suggest that all these TIMs were set upon out of nowhere by violent assailants motivated by homophobia, transphobia or animus towards supposedly "effeminate" men.

If men in countries like the USA, Canada and the UK were killing each other primarily or solely out of homophobia nowadays, I'd think we'd be hearing about a lot more murders of out and proud gay men occurring. But that doesn't seem to be happening. I know men who got beaten up by other guys for being gay in the 70s and 80s, and my childhood next-door neighbor was murdered coz of homophobia in case in which the killer used - successfully too - the "gay panic defense" when the case was tried in 1990. But nowadays, there does not seem to be a spate of men being killed for being gay in most places in the West.

I've long lived in "gay nabes" and am friends with many gay men - none of them are afraid for their lives, and none feel that today in the West homophobia against gay men is rife. I have friends, colleagues and employees past and present who are the epitome of what used to be called "swishy" - and no one bothers them or even gives them side-eye.

Homophobia against gay males in countries like the US, Canada and the UK is nothing like it was in the 70s and 80s. On the contrary, gay males in these countries are now lionized.

I grew up in the homophobic darks ages. Yet even back then, the most popular TV show by far in the US was "The Liberace Show" and no one had a problem with Little Richard; in fact, in the 60s one of Little Richard's big hits was widely believed to be about male-on-male anal sex. Since then, there's been glam rock, Boy George and Marilyn, The Cure, Kurt Cobain, Karl Lagerfeld and tons of other gay designers, artists and architects who've become much-lauded cultural icons... "Will & Grace," "Queer Eye," "Ru Paul's Drag Race" have become some of the most popular shows of the recent era. In the US, UK and Canada, drag queens are now being invited into libraries and schools to read to little kids. Being "LGBTQ" is the new status symbol.

In the West, there is no "gay murder epidemic" today. The only "murder epidemic" we hear about is the trumped-up one of "trans" meaning TIMs.

My perception is that nowadays lesbophobia amongst both sexes - including many girls & women who are themselves lesbians, especially ones in younger generations - is a far bigger problem than anti-homosexual animus against gay men. Because the era we're living in now is the most misogynistic period I've witnessed in my life of more than six decades.

I think that young women like the author of this article don't have the breadth or depth of experience to see what's going on. As a result, they aren't making the important distinction between the two different kinds of homophobia, and they are erroneously assuming that the hostility and violence being expressed towards lesbians in the current backlash against women is matched by equal animus towards TIMs and so-called "effeminate" gay men. But that's not the case. TIMs, gay male drag queens and males who fetishize femininity are the new sacred caste, the very top of the heap. Whereas women and particularly lesbians are seen as "exclusionary" witches "obsessed with genitals," and are castigated as the lowest of the low.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just came back to add that in the US and the UK, the subcultures where homophobia still seems to be rife are fundamentalist religious ones - conservative Christians especially from the Bible Belt in the US, and conservative Muslims in the UK. To the extent that these populations are growing in those countries, homophobia is probably on the rise.

But amongst the broader, more secular US and UK culture and general public, the climate today towards homosexuality in general is a far cry from the days of Section 28 in the UK and the era in the US when public figures like Anita Bryant, and both the Reagans and the Clintons in the White House espoused callous, openly homophobic views and preached policies that said homosexuals should be denied basic rights (the right to marry, to be on a partner's health insurance, to inherit/partake of partner's pension or SS, to adopt/have a family life, to get decent health care and be treated with dignity & compassion for those with HIV-AIDS, to customary mortuary services in the event of AIDS, to be able to considered next of kin in order to make medical decisions for an incapacitated partner, to be able to visit a partner in hospital or hospice, to plan/attend partner's funeral, to not be subjected to employment or housing discrimination based on sexual orientation) and also should be excluded from various spheres (nursery, elementary and even HS school teaching; the military; macho sports and leagues like the NFL and NBA; coaching positions; leadership in organizations like scouting; on-screen roles in broadcast news; reporting on matters like AIDS).

Today in the UK, Stonewall and other "LGBT" orgs are financially supported by national and local governments and relied on as main advisers to every branch of the state from the police to the Crown Prosecution Service to schools. Gay men like Peter Tatchell, Elton John, Stephen Fry, Owen Jones, Matt Lucas, Douglas Murray and Andrew Doyle are well-respected and have large public platforms. Daffyd "the only gay in the village" from Wales is a well-beloved character. Many of these men are considered national treasures in the UK, and have been honored by the Queen, Elton John with a knighthood.

Similarly, in the US, orgs like GLAAD, HRC and Athlete Ally get tons of funding, and politicians court them for their endorsements. A number of major news anchors and talking head pundits who appear on the biggest TV channels in the US - including Fox News - are openly homosexual, and there is no hue and cry from the public, not even from religious conservatives. A gay man with little political experience was a candidate for POTUS this year, and he was taken seriously largely based on his being gay, which was seen as akin to a professional credential that gave him extra gravitas, wisdom and voter appeal. Ellen Degeneres went from being a comedian very much in the closet to being the out-and-proud host of what I believe is now the most-watched daytime talk show amongst the broad and varied American public.

However, I fear there might be a countervailing trend afoot among the very young. As the homophobia of so many TRAs shows, and the internalized homophobia of so many of the young people - especially teen girls & young women - who are now becoming convinced it's better to be trans than gay also makes painfully clear, it also seems that anti-gay animus and revulsion is perhaps rising amongst young people who've grown up on the internet.

On the surface, most of these young people are supposedly gung-ho supporters of the "LGBTQ-ETC, ETC." But deep down, a whole lot of them seem to be quite squeamish and even repulsed about the idea of physically engaging in sex with another person, in much the same way that little kids are when they learn about how babies are made and say "yuk! I'm never gonna do that." And it seems like many might be most squeamish of all about the idea of IRL sex between two people whose bodies are both of their own sex. Hence, we have teen girls today utterly obsessed with fuzzy, gauzy, fantasies of gay male sex in "slash" fiction about male-on-male sex written by females for females, and young men claiming that "lesbian sex" can involve two guys with dicks, nd that lots of "women" enjoy getting blow jobs from other "women" who also like getting their dicks sucked.

I wonder if one reason for this might be because today's young people are far less experienced than previous generations in real-life romantic and sexual relationships, and so many of them have low self-esteem and serious body-image issues. They are saturated with sexual material, much of it grotesque, via their screens and most/many of them seem plenty proficient at masturbating. But at the same time, so many/most appear never to have had a RL BF or GF, held someone's hand romantically, had their first romantic kiss, or felt the heady frisson that charges the air with a special kind of electricity when in close physical contact to someone with whom one shares a strong, mutual sexual attraction. If they have had sex with another person, it often seems mechanistic, transactional and onanistic - not at all romantic. The sort of stuff that might get them to cum, but not cause the heart to flutter.

Also at the same time, tweens, teens and young adults spend more time than any generation in history alone in their rooms or bathrooms looking at and studying themselves in the mirror, taking endless photos of themselves and painstakingly altering them so they give just the right (fake, unrealistic) impression to others, worrying about and trying on "identities" and labels as if they were clothes at deeply-discounted designer sample sale, and fretting about and trying invent ways to control how other people perceive and refer to them.

So many young people nowadays pretend to be sexually savvy and sophisticated, and intellectually they might be, but as far as hands-on physical and emotional closeness with a RL partner goes, they often are complete naifs and total rubes who have no "lived experience" at all. So many seem utterly obsessed with how they and others look, but completely disconnected from living in their own bodies and fully experiencing the feelings, functions and capabilities of their own bodies - and the bodies of others in a tactile, connected, flesh-on-flesh way. They are often ultra-focused on how their bodies and the bodies of others look, and they are extremely critical of their own and other people's bodies for not looking Instagram perfect, but they seem less appreciative of other aspects of bodies beyond appearance. The only sexual function many seem into is orgasming, not deeply communing with another person in a mutual way - and certainly not "making love." Many of them seem to feel unusually fearful, anxious, put off and even repelled by the prospect of being in a RL situation where their own flawed human body made of flesh, blood, flab and bone would have naked sexual congress with another human being's equally flesh and blood, equally flawed body.

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

In anglo-sphere maybe as you are saying (and homophobia there was never too big), in other countries transgender people often seen as just weird gay people, and used by media to weaponize against homosexuality, saying that "see, it spreads, and people are becoming this stupid". I know few countries where are laws similar to Section 28 and where it is allowing to change sex in birth certificate, which are thinking to rewoke that ability, because they are thinking that gay men are using this as loophole in law to marry each other and live together in homosexual marriages after one of them changing sex. Other countries are seeing it the other way around - that changing sex will cure from homophobia (with the most visible example as Iran).

In SA and Asian countries, most transwomen who are killed - are prostitutes.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In NA and Asian countries, most transwomen who are killed - are prostitutes.

I think you might have meant in SA and CA there, not NA. I don't know about Canada, but in the US specifically, under 30% of TIMs who died of homicide in the five years from 2015 through 2019 were prostitutes.

Looking at homicides of TIMs in this time period where the circumstances and perpetrator were able to be ascertained, the largest group - 37% - were killed in incidents of domestic violence by their male spouses, partners, lovers or roommates with whom there was an ongoing pattern of male-on-male physical violence.

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I meant South America and asian countries like Thailand.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, that's what I thought. I see you've changed it now.

Also, in Thailand and the Philippines and some other Asian countries, the sex industry and sex tourism/colonization are so huge and the "ladyboy" thing is so predominant that it seems that a lot - perhaps the majority - of gay male youths are expected/coerced/forced to pretend they are female and go into prostitution (like millions of poor girls and women are). Gay men who live as gay men without any pretending to be something else in those countries seem like they are much, much rarer than in the West. Which is tragic.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you put it that way, I guess you're right and many TiMs are not that femenine. When I talked about effeminacy, I was thinking mainly in their appearance and mannerisms. That may be a quite shallow understanding of the concept, but those characteristics are way more visible than a man being into knitting, cooking or poetry, which you may never learn about unless they tell you about it. Moreover, people usually associate an effeminate looking man as him being gay. And although heterosexual TiMs outnumber the gay ones, I think most people who are unaware about trans politics think that TiMs are basically very effeminate gay men. At least that was what I thought they all were until recently.

Regarding the murders, yeah, I take any number they give with a good dosis of salt because they are always trying to paint themselves as the most oppressed and, practically, anything they don't like may be considered transphobia. So, they see an TiM being murdered and they claim this is a hate crime without caring about the cause of the crime. And as you say, in the US and in other developed countries TiMs are in general quite safe, and the crimes are blown out of proportion because it serves to further their agenda. Actually, even here in Latin America, where there are more TiMs involved in prostitution, the crimes are blown out of proportion because it serves to further their agenda.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I talked about effeminacy, I was thinking mainly in their appearance and mannerisms.

It's not your concept of "effeminacy" I'm taking issue with. It's the concept of "effeminacy" that has been put forward by men for donkey's years that I think a lot of us women have just blindly accepted and parroted. As you pointed out, this concept is based solely on

appearance and mannerisms

Which reduces women to two-dimensional beings who consist of nothing but surface appearances and superficial mannerisms. Sounds pretty sexist, misogynistic and dehumanizing to me.

Yes, these men's "appearance and mannerisms" might seem to be "effeminate" in some people's view coz they are exaggerated versions or caricatures of the appearance and mannerisms of some members of the female sex. But I think the segment of the female sex they model their appearance and mannerisms on is an incredibly small segment of the worldwide female population, one that's not at all indicative or representative of how the vast majority of female people appear and behave.

These guys base their idea of being female on the sexed-up public personas and stage performances of women like Marilyn Monroe, Jayne Mansfield, Judy Garland, Cher and the Kardashians - not on the reality of what those women were/are really like behind the scenes. From what little I've seen, the Kardashian women might look a certain way, but they tend to speak forthrightly in normal tones rather than in high-pitched breathy voices, and none of them are constantly engaging in fluttery hand mannerisms and constant head tilting and simpering that these supposedly "effeminate" guys tend to evince.

Also, the female sex symbols and pop stars such that these men base their idea of womanhood and femaleness on never were, nor are they now, at all representative of what the majority of the world's women are like or have ever been like. Why are none of these guys basing their idea of womanhood on famous and notable women like Golda Meir, Shirley Chisholm, Bella Abzug, Indira Ghandi, Temple Grandin, Angela Davis, Janet Reno, Mother Teresa, Hibo Wardere, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Marie Curie, Donna Strickland, Svetlana Alexievich, Tu Youyou, Malala Yousafzai - or on these men's own mums, grandmums, teachers and neighbors?

Even if we say okay fine, let these men take their idea of womanhood only from film and pop stars, why are these men still exclusively focused on such a narrow group of women in film and music? Why the sole focus on women who were publicly presented as widely perceived as big bosomed sex bombs, rather than on actresses like Eve Arden, Glenn Close, Judy Dench, Linda Hunt and rockers like Patti Smith, Joan Armatrading and Annie Lennox?

I'm old and as a result have known and observed thousands, probably tens of thousands, of women IRL. Only a handful have had appearances and mannerisms that come anywhere close to the ones displayed by these men that, in my view, are inaccurately labelled "effeminate."

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm quite sceptical that transphobia (i.e. the hate of trans identified people for the fact of them identifying with the opposite sex) exist as such. I think the transphobic crimes (the actual murders, not the "misgendering" and the "deadnaming") are really a product of homophobia. As the author argue in this article, men are unconfortable with effeminacy in other men. And they would rather widen the category of women before they do so with the category of men. Not that this matters much, as people are still pretty good at noticing which humans are males and which ones are females, cross-sex hormones and cosmetic surgeries notwithstanding. Then again, transactivists are far more interested in controlling women than in fighting male violence.

[–]MezozoicGay 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I would say it is hate for GNC men and/or homophobia. I never saw, met or read any reports or cases when assault was based on gender identity - it always was "looking weird", "not masculine man", "are you gay?" and similar ones.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can you provide some links to the reports and cases you are referring to so we can see when and where they have occurred? If large numbers of "GNC men" are being physically assaulted in countries like the US and UK today for "looking weird, not being masculine enough, or coming off as gay in the eyes of others, I and many others I know would really like to learn the details. Also, I have acquaintances as well as grown sons who along with their male friends of their same age sometimes "present" in non-masculine ways - makeup, long hair, dresses - so I'd like to warn them of where this is going on. Thanks.

[–]MezozoicGay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

US and UK not the whole world. I was referring to our local reports mostly, so I can't provide any links. It is just personal observation.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I know that, and I've never meant to suggest otherwise. If you look through my posts, I think you'll find I usually try to be very specific about what countries and cultures as well as what time periods in history I am referring to. Sorry if that did not come across. I meant no offense.

From your posts, I usually can't tell what countries and cultures and eras you are referring to coz you usually don't say or you are very vague. In one post on this thread you spoke of "NA and Asia" and now after I asked if you meant SA rather than NA, you've corrected it to say SA. This makes what you meant clearer, but your post and point still remains vague coz it really doesn't indicate where you're coming from, so to speak.

After all, SA and Asia are huge continents with much variation from country to country. The situation re gay rights and crime against gays and trans people in Brazil is most likely different to what's happening in Argentina, Chile, Colombia or Ecuador. Just as the situation and status of gay men and TIMs in Thailand or Cambodia is different to what's going with gay rights and violence against homosexuals and trans people in Japan, Indonesia, Pakistan, China and Iran - and each country is different to the next one.

I was referring to our local reports mostly, so I can't provide any links.

But what do you mean by "our local reports"? Who is "our"? Where is local to you? Unless you say, no one else on an internet forum has any idea.

I'd really be interested to know where you are speaking of and from, and what's going on there - and I think others here would as well.

An underlying issue in this convo is that after gay marriage equality and gay rights were won in most of the West, Western gay orgs like Stonewall and Human Rights Campaign decided that rather than turn their gaze and efforts outwards to advocate for homosexual rights in the rest of the world, these orgs - and "woke" people in the West generally - decided instead to focus their efforts on promoting transgenderism and queer theory within their own countries and cultures. They've chosen to turn their backs on - and a blind eye to - much of the rest of the world. Which I think is a shame, and morally indefensible.

Again, I'd really be interested to know what's going on wherever it is you are. I think it's awful how the "woke" and the media in NA and Europe have pretty much tuned out what's going on with women and LGB people in most of the rest of the world in order to promote in their own lands the cause of heterosexual men's rights in the guise of transgenderism, and also to advocate that medical harm should be done to confused young people of both sexes and all sexualities, particularly girls and young women and young males with mental health issues who might be on the autism spectrum.

Wherever on earth you are, I hope you are well and will always be safe. Best wishes to you.