QT/trans: What would be the worst things to happen if the concept of gender did not exist?

submitted by [deleted] from (self.GCdebatesQT)

ETA: I was made aware that this topic would be a good one addressed to everyone rather than just QT and trans people, so I would add GC to the title if I could. Please share if you'd like!

I don't know that I've really heard this scenario entertained by any QT or pro-gender people, so I'm very curious to know what they think.

I personally feel that the worst thing would be to have one less thing to talk about and having to use more words to describe certain things, since I don't really see it as real. I don't believe it's real but I'm still myself--actually, I'm probably even more myself without it. Life seems freer without it.

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Obligatory not QT, but trans. I wish gender didn’t exist or stopped existing, but I don’t think it’s possible. I feel like we can push against gender roles, but some gender stuff will always exist as long as there are two sexes. We can push toward it though by fighting against gender roles and teaching future generations that they can be however they are and not feel like they don’t fit because of their sex. As a child, I feel like that would have help make my life so much easier. It’s even possible I wouldn’t have been trans and grown up be a feminine gay man (for you GCers, i mean like for real, not who is trans lol).

Even for present me, I can’t imagine it would be anything, but positive. I feel like women who are nonconforming like Worried and others would have an easier time. Same for nonconforming men. I feel like a lot of gender behaviors most of us our already socialized into though, so we probably wouldn’t all start being different, but we’d have more freedom over time and it would be nice for future people.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like women who are nonconforming like Worried and others would have an easier time. Same for nonconforming men.

If we didn't have gender, we'd all be "nonconforming". It's not just about the few outliers being able to feel normal, it's about people in general abandoning these toxic af ideals based in male supremacy.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think I get what you are saying. There wouldn’t be any conformity or nonconformity because there’d be nothing to conform too. I feel like if it went away magically but we were all still socialized the same, we might be the same ways. I feel people seen nonconforming now and children would benefit the most, but it would be good for everyone. If we could magically make it where none of us were taught those toxic ideals, that would be even better, but I guess I’m thinking about if it just stopped being enforced or cared about.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like currently, the liberal approach is just to ask for acceptance for a small percentage of people who don't fit in, which is missing the point: gender itself is severely damaging to our society and that needs to change, not stay firmly in place as a norm justified with appeals to the status quo, evo psych, social preferences etc. Sure, we'll let the few "weirdos" who for some strange reason haven't been indoctrinated properly do their thing, but otherwise the system is perfectly fine as it is regardless of how much harm it causes society.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This couldn't be put any better, I very much agree with you. I'm a little bitter about what it's done to me, and what it does to others...it just seems to make life more miserable for everyone. In our current world, it's easy to feel like one has been swept into the corner when they don't conform to those expectations and are made to feel like they're 'wrong' or 'bad'. It's maddening to think that people see gender non-conformity as indicative that one is trans and should transition, continuing to push the message that it's still somehow wrong to be a feminine male or a masculine female, especially if they're same sex attracted.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, sorry I got a bit worked up 😅

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (118 children)

You do know that there are QT people like myself who would prefer the abolition of gender, yes? QT != pro-gender anymore than being married == pro-marriage.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

If there were no gender roles, then what trans people would use as point of reference for their identities. If you reject both a biological based and gender roles based definition of woman and man, then what makes you a man or a woman?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (16 children)

They wouldn’t identify with gender labels they would just prefer different biologies with no social meaning attached

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 6 fun -  (15 children)

Why would they need to prefer that, though?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

Because humans posess that instinct

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (13 children)

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but do you mean the instinct to prefer different biologies? If so, to what end is the preference?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (12 children)

Its not just that, its more like an instinct to identify with a group based on observable sex traits and to then normalize some sort of appearance standards for your own self based off of that criteria. In the wild, we naturally see these sorts of sex trait groups form among chimps and bonobos so it doesn’t seem odd to think that some sort of modified group instinct is operating and creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

[–]adungitit 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

an instinct to identify with a group based on observable sex traits

So...once again we end up with gender roles, except in more words.

normalize some sort of appearance standards for your own self based off of that criteria

Like...the whole point of feminism is not to do that. Women have nothing to "normalise" themselves according to; they're women regardless of whether they feel like women, whether they enjoy being women or whether they relate to being women. They're female when they're unconscious, when they're dead, when they're infants. The fact that the patriarchy has decided a "woman" is akin to a walking blowup doll or a type of brain you have is a PROBLEM, not a fun thing to validate your gender with. Remove that, and women are still women - male trans people are not.

we naturally see these sorts of sex trait groups form among chimps and bonobos

Oh ffs, here we go again...

it doesn’t seem odd to think that some sort of modified group instinct is operating and creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

Lovely. Bioessentialism supports patriarchy because chimps, and if women are getting screwed over by it, they should just comfort themselves knowing their gender is being validated by these groupings.

creating a sort of instinctual sameness between members of a group that posess similar sex traits

"It's not gender roles, guise! It's something different that's exactly the same, except not called that!"

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So the sexed-linked behaviors of primates "in the wild" such as chimps is based on "appearance standards"? When it comes to "observable sex traits," the cues other primates rely on are principally visual? I though the old saw about primates across the board trading in smell for sight over the course of evolution has proven not to be true after all.

Primates, including humans, are usually thought of as visual animals with reduced reliance on the sense of smell. In behavioral experiments, biologists have now found that chimpanzees use olfaction as a prime mode of investigation, and that they recognize group members and kin using olfactory cues.

Human scientists who've found that smell is chimps' "go-to" sense that they most rely on to observe other chimps "in the wild" have speculated that

"Odor might be especially important because most chimpanzees live in dense forests where visibility is low, and because in chimpanzee societies, group members split up into subgroups that may not see each other for days"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181024083346.htm#:~:text=Primates%2C%20including%20humans%2C%20are%20usually,and%20kin%

It's interesting that you feel comfortable making generalizations about bonobos, particularly "in the wild," when primatologists call them "the forgotten ape" and most of what is known about them comes from observing them in captivity. Little is known about how they behave in their native habitat:

Wild bonobos can only be found in forests south of the Congo River in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Sometimes known as the pygmy chimpanzee, bonobos weren’t recognized as a separate species until 1929. As the last great ape to be scientifically described, much remains unknown about the bonobo—including the extent of its geographic range. Efforts to survey the species over the past two decades have been hampered by the remote nature of its habitat, the patchiness of their distribution and years of civil unrest within the DRC. https://www.worldwildlife.org/species/bonobo

What little research has been done on bonobos "in the wild" unfortunately has been done by human observers, such as wildlife photographer Frans de Waal, author of the 1998 book The Forgotten Ape, who to a man (LOL) have consistently projected their own feelings, perceptions and motivations onto bonobos, ascribing human characteristics and psychology to them. To wit:

When the lively, penetrating eyes lock with ours and challenge us to reveal who we are, we know right away that we are not looking at a "mere" animal, but at a creature of considerable intellect with a secure sense of its place in the world. We are meeting a member of the same tailless, flat-chasted, long-armed primate family to which we ourselves and only a handful of other species belong. We feel the age-old connection before we can stop to think, as people are wont to do, how different we are.

Bonobos will not let us indulge in this thought for long: in everything they do, they resemble us. A complaining youngster will pout his lips like an unhappy child or stretch out an open hand to beg for food. In the midst of sexual intercourse, a female may squeal with apparent pleasure. And at play, bonobos utter coarse laughs when their partners tickle their bellies or armpits. There is no escape, we are looking at an animal so akin to ourselves that the dividing line is seriously blurred.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/d/dewaal-bonobo.html

The attitude that human males like de Waal have toward bonobos is very similar to the attitude many men, particularly genderists, have towards women.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

It makes sense if you already were a member of that sex, but it doesn't if you aren't. The only way might be for a person with some kind of gender dysphoria, but that seems unlikely it would only be about observable sex traits.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

The instinct to imprint onto a sex trait group would function regardless of one’s own observable sex traits at least for a time. Infants can discern sex trait differences in their parents at something like 18 months and who knows when the imprinting begins

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Infants can discern sex trait differences in their parents at something like 18 months

Infants can distinguish between their parents much earlier than that, LOL. An infant recognizes mom's voice, smell, the way her skin feels, the sound of her heartbeat from the start - and infants who have close physical with their dads can distinguish dad's voice, smell, skin feel and heartbeat sounds/pace from mom's coz these are very different in myriad ways.

But that doesn't mean children - whatever their age - automatically make all the exact same sexist stereotyped assumptions that you believe they must make. When my own kids were toddlers, for example, they thought only men can cook and hammers were tools that "ladies use."

Also, just FYI, when speaking of what happens during the various stages of child development, no one familiar with the field would call a child of 18 months an infant. They'd say toddler instead.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

This sounds like some patriarchical BS, that gender stereotypes are biological and instincitve.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is possibly the least sensible cluster of words I’ve ever seen.

Explain like I’m five.

[–]AlexisK 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (95 children)

Can you elaborate and explain how would transgenderism exist without notion of gender?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (94 children)

It wouldn’t, just as socialism wouldn’t exist in a perfect communist utopia.

[–]AlexisK 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (93 children)

Then I don't understand your position, can you explain it more?

Without gender - sex differences would still exist, thought. Just sexist stereotypes and gendered roles would cease to exist.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (92 children)

The sex binary is a part of gender. Sex trait combinations actually occur along a spectrum. With no artificial sex binary and the oppressive societies that they breed, people who are born with or desire different sex trait combinations won’t be stigmatized.

[–]adungitit 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Sex trait combinations actually occur along a spectrum

Almost all human beings, barring <1% of medical disorders, are male or female. This is a spectrum as much as a number of human limbs is a spectrum.

Men and women show natural variance in their male and female bodies - this doesn't make them the opposite sex. Sex isn't defined by secondary characteristics, hence why various developmental issues can affect the sexes while still making their sex apparent.

With no artificial sex binary

The reality of male and female bodies is not artificial. You can see that in a simple fact of mammalian reproduction.

With no artificial sex binary and the oppressive societies that they breed

This comes back to the pretty damn offensive idea that the problem with the patriarchy is simply down to those pesky females having to be female, and if they didn't, superior males wouldn't naturally abuse and subjugate them. Instead of fixing oppression, the victims are blamed for being different and facilitating said oppression through that because of the natural order.

people who are born with or desire different sex trait combinations won’t be stigmatized.

You are assuming that coveting opposite sex traits to the point of suicidal ideation and spending a lifetime on drugs in order to prevent your body from naturally producing the hormones that it's supposed to have, and amputating perfectly normal body parts just because you've convinced yourself your properly developed body parts are "wrong" or "defective" is in any way good for the person. Moreover, the patriarchal ideas internalised in these body parts are an almost unavoidable part of the motivation for removing or deforming them, and trans people aren't shy about stating it. There is a reason people obsess the most over removing the things that are loaded with social meaning, as opposed to, I dunno, one third of their toes.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 10 fun2 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 10 fun -  (33 children)

No, no humans are male or female because its a spectrum. Also the number of limbs on a human being is objectively not a fixed number, so yeah you could describe it as a spectrum.

All sex traits determine an individuals sex spectrum status, not just “primary” ones. The distinction is arbitrary.

Mammalian reproduction following a two gamete pattern does not show that their are only two sexes, because some people who don’t produce gametes. Since those people aren’t sexless, sex is based on anatomy and therefore a spectrum as sexual anatomy occurs in intermediate forms across a whole range of possible sex trait configurations.

It in no way supports such an idea? The issue is oppressive systems of thinking not people posessing certain sex trait configurations

Cis people and their noxious sytsems of oppression are what fuel the tendency for trans people to normalize their appearances in line with cis standards of appearance. I’m sorry, what was that you said about victim blaming? 🙄

[–]adungitit 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

no humans are male or female because its a spectrum.

How exactly do you think babies are made?

the number of limbs on a human being is objectively not a fixed number, so yeah you could describe it as a spectrum.

It is fixed, and the fact that developmental disorders exist doesn't change that.

All sex traits determine an individuals sex spectrum status, not just “primary” ones.

If you redefine sex to include things that it's not supposed to include, sure. But sex IS about primary characteristics, hence why doctors can still easily tell who's male or female regardless of secondary characteristics. They're not scratching their heads unless it's primary characteristics.

some people don’t produce gametes. Since those people aren’t sexless

They still develop the anatomy specifically for producing only one type of gamete. Infertility doesn't change the fact that the sexes develop in a consistent way to facilitate this. You can have malfunctioning equipment, but that doesn't mean the equipment isn't there, or worse yet, the fact that it's malfunctioning doesn't mean it cannot be defined according to its structure, development and purpose, or even worse yet, the fact that it's malfunctioning doesn't mean it can be defined as anything your heart desires. If you remove tires from a car or if a car stops working or hell, if a car is in a garage and isn't being used, that's still a car. It hasn't turned into a bird or a plane just because it doesn't serve its function.

The distinction is arbitrary.

Human reproduction certainly disagrees. No-one was prevented from getting pregnant just by believing in their pronouns hard enough, so the real arbiter has pretty consistently decided on this.

Do you think reproductive capabilities are a completely random throw of the dice? Why do you think mammalian sexes have developed in the first place? Why do you think there has never in the entire history of humanity been a single pregnant male or an impregnating female? Like literally never?

It in no way supports such an idea? The issue is oppressive systems of thinking not people posessing certain sex trait configurations

You've said that oppressive societies are bred by the sex binary. Were you specifically referring to societies oppressive to trans people, though? Because it sounds like you're not even considering patriarchal oppression in this arrangement.

Cis people and their noxious sytsems of oppression are what fuel the tendency for trans people to normalize their appearances in line with cis standards of appearance.

Are you saying that the only reason trans people transition is because of "cis oppression"? I don't think that's a sentiment most trans people would get behind.

Moreover, trans people objectively have no issues with their sex at all, like literally none. The only reason they think they have is because of a mental illness. At the end of the day, it's people who are convinced they should be something they're not, to the point of wanting unnecessary and damaging intervention on their bodies. It is something rooted in hatred of one's normal body, and that is in stark contrast with other oppressed groups. Trans people have more in common with body integrity disorder than intersex people.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They still develop the anatomy specifically for producing only one type of gamete.

A little fix: "specifically to support only one type of gamete."

Full sex definition is something like "Female is a living organism that is grown with aim to support and/or produce large immovable gametes". it covers all species, except some mushrooms, bacteria and organizms which are cloning themselves (and even ones which are cloning can have sex, thought).

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

some people who don’t produce gametes

Do you know that women are not producing gametes?

We are born with all gametes we will ever mature and release.

Do you know that pre-puberty no one is producing or maturing gametes? And that all women after menopause and all men after andropause are not producing or maturing gametes?

Do you know that during pregnancy women are not maturing any gametes?

Do you know that menstruation is body removing matured egg which was not fertilized with extra layer of endometrium which grown to become placenta? And only after that new egg from ovaries will start maturing and later be released.

If "producing gametes" was the definition of sex, then only men post puberty and pre andropause would be sexed, all other humans would be sexless!

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If "producing gametes" was the definition of sex, then only men post puberty and pre andropause would be sexed, all other humans would be sexless!

Yes. And even if we expanded the definition to "producing or releasing gametes," it would still mean most girls & women would be sexless 99% of the time during our prime reproductive years. Coz even during the approximately 40 years between menarche and menopause when female humans are capable of maturing and releasing eggs, we aren't capable of doing this all the time - or even most of the time. When not pregnant, on hormonal BC or breastfeeding, girls and women typically release an egg once every 28 days, for a total of 13 a year. Only males can produce sperm at will 24/7/365 and by the hundreds of millions each time.

Heimdekledi has a very male view of human sex. Either due to being utterly clueless about how female bodies work, or from choosing to ignore human female biology altogether coz its realities contradict the spurious claims that "no humans are male or female" and that "sexual anatomy occurs in intermediate forms across a whole range."

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (28 children)

It was intended to cover people whom could produce any sort of viable gamete at any point in their lives. This would be a gamete basis of sex after all.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

No, it would not. It is pretty male-centric position and complete lack of understanding of females and our experiences, and our biology.

Supporting gamete type is not same as producing gametes.

That was more of a educational post anyways, so you can have some idea about us and our biology.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 7 fun11 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

Speaking of spectrums...

...did you ever make yours? You know, the matrix you said existed and that you’d map out and upload?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Remember it can’t be presented in two or three dimensions. It needs a fourth dimension, six projectors, and the movie the matrix to be fact.

[–]AlexisK 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (54 children)

I can't understand how it is related to abolition of gender at all. Gender non conformity is what stigmatized by Gender Identity movement, as it says that there must be strict gender roles of how women or men should look, act or behave. Gender Critical position is mostly to abolish gender and to promote gender non-conformity, make it norm, so everyone can look and behave however they want. So, in general, it makes very little sense in real world what you are saying.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (53 children)

You have no idea what the “Gender Identity movement” is about if you think that we support any sort of gender roles. We are the gnc people, unlike most of Gender Critical with their talk of “female appearances”. Lookin at you /u/loveSloane

[–]AlexisK 15 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

We are the gnc people

Then why politicians are pushing for puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones? Then why Mermaids and GLAAD are saying that if girl is tomboy - she is boy? Then why transwomen and transmen are making all those surgeries to look like opposite sex?

If you are just gender non-conforming - why everything is so focused on being gender conforming to opposite sex?

This sounds like gaslighting, to be honest.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun -  (6 children)

Because those things are helpful for trans kids and teenagers. Mermaid and GLAAD aren’t saying that being a tomboy is inherently evidence of being trans. We have those surgeries because of cis people being more likely to abuse us when we don’t match cis normative appearance standards, just the same as cis people who have the same surgeries do.

Everything isn’t focused on conformity, that is just the part of the trans movement that you are focused on.

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

[–]AlexisK 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Again.

If you are suffering from this conformity, then WHY you (as movement, politicians, organizations) are pushing this conformity so hard and demanding it? Why you are not fighting with GC feminists to abolish gender and instead reinforcing gender in laws? This just makes no sense. At all.

Mermaid and GLAAD aren’t saying that being a tomboy is inherently evidence of being trans.

Not sure about GLAAD, but Mermaids were saying that. I am not sure if they are saying this anymore, thought, as they changed their positions few times.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

Huh? Gaslighting

is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment (Wikipedia)

To gaslight is to

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity (Oxford)

Gaslighting need not involve relating anything about the gaslighter's own "thoughts and experiences" at all, whether true or untrue. Often, it means lying about objective reality. Like whether the lights keep dimming and flickering as in the famous movie that gave rise to the term.

[–]kwallio 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You're so funny.

We are the gnc people

Where would trans ppl be without gender roles and stereotyped gender presentation

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

Um better off trans people?

[–]kwallio 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Trans aren't GNC. They literally conform to gender stereotypes, thats why they're trans. You're not doing anything revolutionary, just reinforcing gender stereotypes that hurt women.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

The more I read your comments, the more I realize how hilarious you really are 😂 I mean this in the absolute nicest way possible, thank you!

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

You do understand that transitioning is conforming to a different gender role right? Trans people say I don't like this [male/female]box, I want to get into this [female/male]box instead.

Gender critical people say fuck the boxes. Your sex is not your fate. There are two sexes and infinite personalities. There is no need whatsoever to modify your body. You are your body and your body is just fine the way it is. You know what actual gender nonconformity actually is? Being 100% honest about who and what you are and pursuing your interests regardless of whether they are 'masculine' or 'feminine', the haters be damned. Not trying to fool them into thinking you are the opposite sex. That's the cowards solution.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (9 children)

No trans people are against boxes as well

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then what exactly are you transitioning into? Why is there any need whatsoever to change your body?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So why are we supposed to treat men in dresses like women?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Oh hey little buddy!

Sure thing. Claiming to have a gender identity in the first place is definitely not rooted in misogynistic stereotypes, nor is it narcissistic arrogance to insist that you have some internal understanding of what it is to be/think like the opposite sex. Not at all. 🙄

Eta- sexed features exist. Fact. Trans people alter their features to attempt to resemble the opposite sex all the time. Another fact.

Claiming that despite being a trans person you are against thr concept of gender and don’t reinforce it- false and comical.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (22 children)

It isn’t based on stereotypes its based off a sex trait group orientation instinct. Maybe.

It isn't like anything to be the “opposite sex” the term is defined by the experiences of the people existing not some essentialistic conception of “female” thought/experience, quit arguing against someone else’s argument.

I probably reinforce gender less than you do. I mean we know that you believe that there exist “male” and “female” appearances so thats pretty gender normative by itself.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Lmao

You’re saying you identify as the opposite sex/gender based on group orientation that the opposite gender don’t even fit into? And that you would never have even been orientated into, because you weren’t part of the group the instinct applied to?

Women don’t all behave in the same way, we don’t all like or believe or want or do the same things- so what exactly is this group orientation instinct? Asking for examples of what behaviors, habits, and beliefs all women share that TW share as well.

And how do you account for the women and girls who don’t follow that group instinct but know they are women?

Im not talking about mentality or presentation when I say «female » appearance. I’m talking about actual sexed features that trans people often attempt to mimic on their own bodies. Whether you like it or not, sexed features are easily and even unintentionally recognized all the time, and it’s one of the reasons a lot of trans people wish to pass, so idk how you think that’s not gender normative lmao

As far as who reinforces gender more... well I can’t say for sure, but I know one of us (presumably) changed their name and drastically altered their body to appear to be the opposite sex so that despite being a male, they could attempt to live « as a woman », that’s not even getting into the things that person argues in their comments. The other... didn’t, they just grew up to be a woman because they are female and did what they wanted, regardless of whatever group orientation instinct was apparently embedded in them. I’ll leave it up to others to decide which of us is reinforcing gender.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I probably reinforce gender less than you do.

Your posts, and posting history, give the exact opposite impression, LOL. They are replete with, and reflective of, the sexist sex stereotypes called "gender," in fact. And they make you come off as "typically male" as well as male supremacist.

Your chief aim here seems to be to "reinforce gender" by trying to get everyone else to agree with you that the regressive, sexist, misogynistic sex stereotypes you hold dear are both "instinctual" and universal in all humans (and some other primates too).

Your secondary aim here seems to be to make people think you are an authority on the issues under discussion.

I don't think you're making much progress in achieving either aim.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the term is defined by the experiences of the people existing not some essentialistic conception of “female” thought/experience

I can interpret your comment in two ways:

  1. "The experiences of people existing (as a certain sex)", which necessarily excludes trans people, since existing as the opposite sex is not only decidedly not a part of their experience, but is also something that is literally impossible for them to achieve. We can force an artificial hormonal imbalance in male and female people, but that has little to do with a person actually being a certain sex because they, you know, are. The experiences of trans people are the experiences of people obsessed with becoming something they are objectively not to the point of undergoing an unnecessary and invasive procedure on their bodies and spending a lifetime of drugs that are not medically needed, and this is both biologically and experience-wise incomparable with men and women who just happen to exist as a certain sex regardless of how they feel or what they do about it.

  2. Said "experiences" are actually based in gender roles and/or brainsex, so we come back to the usual ladybrains and the patriarchal experiences that the sexes are subjected to being treated as more important and real than the neutral reality of sex itself. Instead of the goal being to end the corrupt system saddling the sexes with these ideas of what they should be doing and how they should be acting, the goal instead seems to be to use the corrupt system to define the sexes themselves and turn it all into one big game of roleplaying, with the liberal "I chose it!" disclaimers being used to soothe everyone's conscience when they take issue with the inherent unfairness of the system.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I sort of understand that. What do you think would be the worst effects of gender being abolished or just never having existed in the first place?

I can see how and why you view GC as reinforcing stereotypes, and you do not see sex as a binary, so I do wonder what transitioning would look like if things matched your ideal world. Like, would anyone have to transition or 'come out' ever at all? Would transgenderism or transsexualism or gender dysphoria still exist?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Fleurista, I'm curious as to why you posed the question in your OP only to QT - and why you only asked "what would be the worst" impact. Why not ask people from both camps to consider and share what they think all the impacts might be - bad, good, in-between, both - across the whole spectrum from best to worst? Rather than asking the QT side only, and then asking them to focus on thinking and naming the most extreme negative effect(s) called "the worst."

One thing I've observed about many people who identify as trans and are caught up in gender ideology today is a tendency to see things in a negative light, to view the glass as half empty rather than half full, as it were. Or, as I like to put it, to look at the world "through bruise-colored glasses." I fear the way you've framed the question here reinforces the tendency to think only of the negative when imagining the realm of possibilities. (Sorry if what I've said sounds insulting or judgmental or anti-trans and anti-genderist. I don't mean to come off that way. Lots of people of all kinds see the world through bruise-colored glasses. I don't mean to suggest it's a trait that's inherent or limited to trans people and those who are hung up on "gender." Coz it isn't.)

Also, it's not clear in your OP what you mean when you ask what would happen "if the concept of gender did not exist." A topic as recent threads reveal, there's a whole lot of confusion and disagreement about. My hunch is you are not asking what if there were no sexual reproduction, no sex differences, no sex acts. By no "concepts of gender" did you mean no sex stereotypes - and no sex roles beyond the ones related directly to reproduction (like women being the ones to stay home with a baby in its first months/year coz of breastfeeding, the importance of the mother-baby bond in the "fourth trimester" and women's need to recover physically from the rigors of labor and childbirth). I suspect you meant the latter, but one can never be sure.

FWIW, I know you didn't ask GC, but in case you're interested, I don't think a point will ever come when there will be no one on earth who believes in sex stereotypes, sex roles based on biology and sex roles based on sexist sterotypes. Coz there will always be noticeable differences between the two sexes, and humans are programmed to make observations about the world and the beings in it, and to make categories based on similarities and distinctions - and to make generalizations about the categories. That's just the nature of how our brains and psyches work. Also, the vast difference between what human reproduction requires of the two sexes is gonna result in some roles being allocated by sex. For example, I would have loved to have shared the burdens of pregnancy with my husband, and I also would've been happy to have split breastfeeding duties with him. He, in turn, would have loved to have been able to have a baby and to breastfeed. But neither of those things were options. Coz of the immutable realities of biology. So anyways to me, imagining a world where there's no sex stereotyping or sex roles seems pointless and pie-in-the-sky, sort of like those inane "thought experiments" about imagining waking up tomorrow with the body of the opposite sex.

However, I do think it's possible to imagine and create a world in which there are fewer and far less rigid sex stereotypes, where the majority of people take sex stereotypes far less seriously than many today do, where kids aren't raised to feel they must conform to one or the other set of stereotypes, and where no child (or adult) will be shamed, punished or bullied for liking "the wrong" stuff, wearing "the wrong" clothes, behaving "the wrong" way," having "the wrong" affect/mannerisms and personality traits for their sex. I think this would have a lot of positive effects on many people of both sexes. However, I also think it would have a number of impacts that many adolescent and adult males would perceive as very negative and would seriously take issue with. Which gets us to the heart of the issue... Or maybe I should say, it gets us to another mammalian organ, one only the male sex has, LOL.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

In retrospect I probably should have made it open to everyone. Maybe I'll add something about that. The reason I only posed that to QT was because I don't really understand what is so valuable about gender that they seem to see--also, you're totally right, I meant the concept of gender as sex stereotypes, thank you for making that clearer!

Also, that's not insulting at all, I actually really appreciate you pointing that out about the negativity the phrasing of the question sets up; I try to be really positive usually, but I suppose my last few posts have had gloomy tones. I'm totally going to start using 'bruise-colored glasses' for that prescription-strength trauma, though.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, though, I appreciate it! You're looking at this realistically (I think you might be right about there always being some kind of sex stereotyping) in keeping with GC realism. Your comments and those of other GC people are always informative and interesting to read, I love reading them. Maybe I'll reword some things in the OP.

As an amends for the negativity and as a 'thank you' for gracing this sub with many good tunes, I offer a song poking fun at depression for levity: https://youtu.be/U-0Zqq3B5mQ

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the song! Loved it. And as someone who has suffered from MDD for much of my life, I sure could relate.

BTW, when I first heard R.E.M.'s Shiny Happy People in the early 90s, I loved it coz I saw it as snarky song written/sung by someone clinically depressed - a view consistent with their song Everybody Hurts and their general image. Then I saw the official video for Shiny Happy People and it ruined my initial impression entirely.