Both: What do you think of the new Super Straight movement?

submitted by worried19 from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I can understand you having that feeling yet I think you're still going to end up at odds with the conservative men.

Oh, I agree. I'm not a fan of conservative men or liberal men at this point. And moderates seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth.

Sure most people are not extreme. But anyone gender variant, non conforming is going to come into conflict with conservative political thought.

I'm not sure, to be honest. You may remember I grew up in a conservative small town. Mostly evangelical. I'd wager over 90% Republican. I did have some bad experiences there, but it wasn't overwhelming. People liked me. I had friends. I felt accepted by most people. Now if I'd been a GNC male, it would likely have been different. I think conservatives give more leeway to masculine women than feminine men.

But you didn't want Trump to win?

God, no. Trump is a sociopath. The trans issue wasn't enough to get me to hope that he won. I voted, but I left the presidential slot blank. I'm not in a swing state, so it didn't matter. I'm still a registered Democrat, but I plan to unaffiliate when I get around to it. I'd rather be independent. I don't trust the Democrats.

Yeah I stopped using reddit for gender talk. There's some subs still going but, the old one scratched an itch.

Reddit's kind of dead. All the subs I liked were banned or inactive. There's still r/gendertroubles, if you want to drop by. It's not that active, though. I'm mostly still there to participate in the anti-kink and anti-porn subs.

How has the sub been? What are the participants like?

A little more active, but we need more quality QT posters. Constant threads asking GC to prove that biology is real get tiresome.

I've had a few questions in my mind I'd ask of the old sub again. "Who do you identify with in public life, on gender?" "What are the identifiable political positions on gender?"

Please post them! We need more discussion. Or you don't want to post them, I will. Just let me know. We can always use more threads.

I think the last time we chatted you stating I had a fetish. I was thinking you might have thought I was away in a "huff." More I was drawn away to work and things. Regarding the "fetish" theory, I always think it's more complicated than that. As if fetish is a way of not thinking about it.

No worries. I didn't even remember saying that. Fetish is maybe not the right word. Sexual kink? Autogynephilia? I don't pretend to know exactly how it works for you, but I know it colors your take on things. It affects your worldview. I also saw that about Eddie Izzard. I'm not even sure what's up with him. I think honestly he's just trying to keep up with the times. "Transvestites" are out and "trans women" are in.

I don't see that much, what I would call, female masculinity in popular media. But it's more common in the street I'd say. There is how people are as populations, how they appear in the media and how they appear in public places. All three can be different. If that makes sense.

Hey, don't apologize for rambling. I can talk about this stuff all day. Where I live, I don't even seen female masculinity on the street. I've seen it like a handful of times since I moved to my current city. I never saw it in my hometown or at college. It's almost invisible in the media. Most GNC women are now being depicted as trans. GNC men are never just casually on the street and only depicted in limited ways in the media, and then mostly only as performers, like drag queens.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh, I agree. I'm not a fan of conservative men or liberal men at this point. And moderates seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth.

There has been a change in recent politics in that moderate debate on topics was hard to find. One of the reasons I liked the old debates subreddit. It was actually people who disagreed and came to debate.

I'm not sure, to be honest. You may remember I grew up in a conservative small town. Mostly evangelical. I'd wager over 90% Republican. I did have some bad experiences there, but it wasn't overwhelming. People liked me. I had friends. I felt accepted by most people. Now if I'd been a GNC male, it would likely have been different. I think conservatives give more leeway to masculine women than feminine men.

Yeah there's a background dynamic going on there. Gender isn't equal is in a perfect mirror and gender non conformity does not appear in the same way.

Women, including gnc women, aren't judged to be sexual threat that men are. And men are more of a sexual threat. In that they are more likely to be sexual criminals.

Are gnc males more of a sexual threat than conforming males. Kind of a big question.

A little more active, but we need more quality QT posters. Constant threads asking GC to prove that biology is real get tiresome.

Please post them! We need more discussion. Or you don't want to post them, I will. Just let me know. We can always use more threads.

I feel like I'd stumble in needlessly antagonise at the moment. And I was never full QT enough.

I'm working on a list of the popular political gender models I'd like to make into a political map.

No worries. I didn't even remember saying that. Fetish is maybe not the right word. Sexual kink? Autogynephilia? I don't pretend to know exactly how it works for you, but I know it colors your take on things. It affects your worldview.

I don't think I am woman, I don't think I identical to the average woman in desire.

But I do think my desires are naturally connected to gender in some way. It's both sexual and identity expression for me.

Ha, I kind of want to say "But look at this dress/make up/fashion worried19, isn't it lovely?" It's not that I think you ought to personally enjoy it but see what others like about it.

I've always made the case that "gender performance/role/expression" reversal is viewed as perversion. Which to me is illuminating.

A point with "Autogynephilia" theory is that it would likely imply autoandrophilia. I'm not sure how you feel about that. But I'm not a Blanchardian.

Hey, don't apologize for rambling. I can talk about this stuff all day. Where I live, I don't even seen female masculinity on the street. I've seen it like a handful of times since I moved to my current city. I never saw it in my hometown or at college. It's almost invisible in the media. Most GNC women are now being depicted as trans. GNC men are never just casually on the street and only depicted in limited ways in the media, and then mostly only as performers, like drag queens.

How big is the city?

Essentialist me would say small communities are not going to have much gnc behaviour at all. Because it's naturally rare and the community does not have enough momentum to form. Where as in cities they can at least congregate and find each other. Though that's usually as adjunct to gay communities. Though of course I know we both identify as straight.

Have you tried to reach out to any gnc women?

Have you changed your mind on anything? Has your model of gender changed?

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Are gnc males more of a sexual threat than conforming males. Kind of a big question.

I don't think inherently. I believe GNC males are more of a threat to the hierarchical order. Men are seen as superior, and femininity is seen as inferior. So for a man to perform femininity means that he is giving up his superior status. Society is disturbed by that. But as far as sexual threats, I don't know. Highly GNC males are viewed as effeminate gay men, and effeminate gay men are seen as weak. Although gay men have also been tagged as child molesters and corrupting influences in the past, so maybe it's not that clear cut. I don't think heterosexual GNC men are part of the public's consciousness, though, or maybe only on the periphery.

I feel like I'd stumble in needlessly antagonise at the moment. And I was never full QT enough.

I'll post them if it's all right with you. I've been trying to think of more ideas for threads.

I'm working on a list of the popular political gender models I'd like to make into a political map.

That sounds like an interesting project. It would make for a good discussion topic once you get finished with it.

But I do think my desires are naturally connected to gender in some way. It's both sexual and identity expression for me.

But are you turned on by seeing yourself as a woman and/or as feminine? I think that's what autogynephilia is. I'm not really a believer in Blanchard, though.

Ha, I kind of want to say "But look at this dress/make up/fashion worried19, isn't it lovely?" It's not that I think you ought to personally enjoy it but see what others like about it.

Ha, I'm afraid the appeal is lost on me. I can't understand what people find attractive about it. I just see it as socially harmful.

I've always made the case that "gender performance/role/expression" reversal is viewed as perversion. Which to me is illuminating.

More with men than women, it seems. Because males are associated more with fetishes and paraphilias. I don't think extremely GNC women are viewed as fetishists ever. We might be seen as ugly, freakish, try-hards, pretenders, confused, or what have you, but I don't think we're seen as perverse or threatening. Or at least not nearly as often as men are.

A point with "Autogynephilia" theory is that it would likely imply autoandrophilia. I'm not sure how you feel about that.

I think it exists. I believe the new population of "gay trans men" include autoandrophiles among them. But not exclusively. There are people in that category trying to escape womanhood for other reasons.

How big is the city?

Don't want to doxx myself, but between 50,000 and 75,000. It's a small city. But there are bigger ones within a day's drive. I haven't reached out to the gay community at all, so it's possible there are more GNC women here than I'm encountering just randomly on the street.

Have you tried to reach out to any gnc women?

Nah, truth be told, I don't want to in this political climate. It wouldn't be good for my mental health considering most GNC women are now disavowing womanhood. I don't want to run the risk. At one point I thought I might like to meet them, but not really anymore. I'll just stick to my male friends.

Have you changed your mind on anything? Has your model of gender changed?

I guess I've become more GC over time? I was really GC-leaning for quite a while, trying to straddle both sides. I'm still quite moderate, but the banning of our old sub really "peaked" me, as the GCs say. I'm still a gender abolitionist. I wish gender would be eradicated. But at the moment I'm most concerned with things like child transition and the fact that media and corporations are trying to cancel anyone who doesn't agree with the party line.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think inherently. I believe GNC males are more of a threat to the hierarchical order. Men are seen as superior, and femininity is seen as inferior. So for a man to perform femininity means that he is giving up his superior status. Society is disturbed by that. But as far as sexual threats, I don't know. Highly GNC males are viewed as effeminate gay men, and effeminate gay men are seen as weak. Although gay men have also been tagged as child molesters and corrupting influences in the past, so maybe it's not that clear cut. I don't think heterosexual GNC men are part of the public's consciousness, though, or maybe only on the periphery.

I don't think heterosexual GNC men are part of the public's consciousness

I think they're in that category of pervert, deviant, sexual fetishist. That is a category in public consciousness. Which isn't a good one. It's also ambiguous in that it covers very mild things to sexual criminality.

I'll post them if it's all right with you. I've been trying to think of more ideas for threads.

I thinking of another one recently. "What do you think is going to happen to the politics of gender in the Western world in the coming years."

Ha I must be missing the old sub to scratch that question.

For me it's probably got worse. There is a full backlash I think going on and crossdressers are kind of caught in it.

But are you turned on by seeing yourself as a woman and/or as feminine? I think that's what autogynephilia is. I'm not really a believer in Blanchard, though.

It's like I'm attracted to being feminine and attracted to dominant women. I see trans woman and think that's not me.

But I can see the overlap with people who do identify as transwomen.

Would I eventually id as a trans woman. I don't think so. But that's one of those impossible what ifs. Certainly if I was a woman, a lot of me desires would not be socially prohibited. But I just don't see myself as a woman or transwoman. Even if I see some of my traits as related to trans.

But then there is that background question. Is masculinity/femininity a thing in itself?

Like I think it is a thing but how much of a thing? For instance I can think of it as an empty but natural category.

For instance, I think names are natural to humans. That's a natural category people have.

Or aggression. Aggression is natural. Masculinity can be natural. That association can be natural.

But how about other traits?

Can they all be linked back to something like on trait like aggression or power?

Ha, I'm afraid the appeal is lost on me. I can't understand what people find attractive about it. I just see it as socially harmful.

But I can see the appeal of masculinity, I mean what others find attractive about masculinity. And I see masculinity in others, including women. I recognise that as a form of masculinity.

More with men than women, it seems. Because males are associated more with fetishes and paraphilias. I don't think extremely GNC women are viewed as fetishists ever. We might be seen as ugly, freakish, try-hards, pretenders, confused, or what have you, but I don't think we're seen as perverse or threatening. Or at least not nearly as often as men are.

That makes sense. But women aren't as likely to commit sex crimes and I guess there is the physical threat aspect too.

I think it exists. I believe the new population of "gay trans men" include autoandrophiles among them. But not exclusively. There are people in that category trying to escape womanhood for other reasons.

Obviously escaping society through transition isn't something I'd think is a good idea. I think they would likely detransition.

But I think transmen can be happier with transition. That appears true.

Don't want to doxx myself, but between 50,000 and 75,000. It's a small city. But there are bigger ones within a day's drive. I haven't reached out to the gay community at all, so it's possible there are more GNC women here than I'm encountering just randomly on the street.

Ah right I wasn't sure of the size.

I found I didn't quite relate to the trans community, not the gay community and a lot of the "fetish" community are are focused on attraction to men. I didn't fit all that. I did like feel at home in the fetish club, where there are compatible women. But that's so rare an environment.

I guess outside of that I'd be viewed as "hon" now.

Nah, truth be told, I don't want to in this political climate. It wouldn't be good for my mental health considering most GNC women are now disavowing womanhood. I don't want to run the risk. At one point I thought I might like to meet them, but not really anymore. I'll just stick to my male friends.

Ah right you're finding that harsh.

Have you met transmen?

I guess I've become more GC over time? I was really GC-leaning for quite a while, trying to straddle both sides. I'm still quite moderate, but the banning of our old sub really "peaked" me, as the GCs say. I'm still a gender abolitionist. I wish gender would be eradicated. But at the moment I'm most concerned with things like child transition and the fact that media and corporations are trying to cancel anyone who doesn't agree with the party line.

The lack of debate annoys me. I'd be more in the trans realist camp. I think the suppression is having negative effects. But I'm also aware that there is an anti trans backlash going on. Maybe I feel it here more in the UK.

Well good to chat again.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think they're in that category of pervert, deviant, sexual fetishist. That is a category in public consciousness. Which isn't a good one. It's also ambiguous in that it covers very mild things to sexual criminality.

True, but I still think it's pretty peripheral. Most people are never going to encounter a straight crossdresser, at least not that they know of. I would guess the vast majority of people just never spend time thinking about it.

I thinking of another one recently. "What do you think is going to happen to the politics of gender in the Western world in the coming years."

That one's good, too. It's weird because I was just looking at an old article from 2008 that foresaw our current predicament. It seems like conservatives correctly predicted the future in this case.

It's like I'm attracted to being feminine and attracted to dominant women. I see trans woman and think that's not me.

Like dresses and makeup, or something else? What does being feminine mean to you? I'm assuming it turns you on. I think that's one huge differences between males and females.

But then there is that background question. Is masculinity/femininity a thing in itself?

I know we've debated this before, but I don't believe it would develop into a thing outside of a gendered society. If we all had shaved heads and lived naked in the woods, there would be no gender. There would still be people who are more towards one end of the spectrum than the other, but it would not be remarkable and no one would think of themselves as GNC because certain behaviors would not be associated with one's sex.

But I can see the appeal of masculinity, I mean what others find attractive about masculinity. And I see masculinity in others, including women. I recognise that as a form of masculinity.

I can't really see it. I think neutrality is best. Femininity is harmful, and masculinity can also be toxic. If I consider myself a masculine woman it is only in relation to our society's norms, and I reject the harmful parts of cultural masculinity.

That makes sense. But women aren't as likely to commit sex crimes and I guess there is the physical threat aspect too.

Exactly, men are overwhelmingly the ones who sexually offend and have penises and superior strength to do it with. Even though GNC women, particularly butch lesbians, have sometimes been seen as potential abusers and corrupters, it's never been to the same extent as males.

Have you met transmen?

Not outside of Reddit. I wouldn't have anything against them on a personal level, but I don't think it would be healthy for me to form friendships with trans men. I have tons of internalized misogyny and male ideation. Being around other females who disavow being female would not be remotely good for me. I'm sure they don't want me to shove my issues on them, either.

The lack of debate annoys me. I'd be more in the trans realist camp. I think the suppression is having negative effects. But I'm also aware that there is an anti trans backlash going on. Maybe I feel it here more in the UK.

Hard to tell it's happening in the USA outside of GC spaces. The mainstream media and corporations are so heavily on board with silencing those who disagree and ignoring any stories that don't fit their narrative. Meanwhile the mainstream public has been kept mostly ignorant of what's going on

Are you worried for what the coming backlash will mean for you as a crossdresser? Have you experienced people thinking you are a trans woman and treating you badly or assuming you have certain views because of it?