QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex?

submitted by SnowAssMan from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

Mysogyny was just one example. The point is woman (or at least some. A theory including natal women and trans women plus some intersex people) is a necessary category based on how our society functions and is structured.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

And you don’t think it’s necessary for adult female humans to be defined separately from any other type of human based on how society functions and is structured?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (35 children)

Sure. There are some things where trans men and natal women should be grouped, but those areas are more narrow than how they need to be separated.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

And I’d say there’s infinite reasons that female adult humans need to be separated from all males. The reasons to combine TW and women are more narrow that the reasons to keep us separated.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

And I disagree. Aside from purely medical contexts a trans woman has more in common with a natal woman than a cis man. And you have more in common with trans women than with trans men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Women have nothing in common with transwomen aside from us all being human lol

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

And the way society treats us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

I don’t get treated like a transwoman tho. And transwomen who don’t pass for female don’t get treated like women so does that mean that only passing TW are women?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

They get treated more similar to natal women than to men. When you enforce a binary as you are attempting to do, it forces a polarization, on any metric but medical the grouping of natal women and trans women being separated from cis men and trans men makes the most sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

“they get treated more similar to natal women than to men.”

How so? What treatment specifically?

“When you enforce a binary as you are attempting to do, it forces a polarization,”

I don’t enforce it. I recognize and acknowledge it. You’re forcing TW on women regardless of how women may feel about it and you can’t even make it make sense. The fact that TW get away with this and women get vilified for objecting to it is, to me, a huge difference between us. Women who object get vilified because we are female and people expect things from females that they don’t expect from males.

“on any metric but medical”

The medical part is huge- HUGE- tho. Females function so drastically differently than males, even TW. There’s also mental- you will never know what it is to be female and never have appear male or be treated as a male, you won’t ever know what it’s like to be raised as a female and develop naturally as one, and you will always be experiencing life as a male who is perceived as female (presumably)- thats not the same as existing as a female. We have nothing in common because females internalize the same treatment differently than TW do. And as I said, a non passing TW won’t be treated the same as passing TW.

“The grouping of natal women and trans women being separated from cis men and trans men makes the most sense.”

Not if the way we experience life is different internally and externally, and our anatomy/physiology is different.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You appear to be saying that if a disguise is effective, then it's no longer a disguise. By that logic trans-womxyn like Debbie Hayton are women, but you reject that idea. Not only do you think Debbie isn't a woman, you don't even think she is trans. What if you are a GNC woman who keeps getting misgendered? Are you a man due to how "society treats you"?

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

and WHY is it structured or does it function that way. What differences were there between groups that led to one set holding power over the other, who were at risk of being "barefoot and pregnant"...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Cis men were physically stronger than natal women early in society and were able to over time erect structures to put men into positions of social power once more complex societies in evolved. Cis men hate women, that’s the reason for gendered society.

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

it's not "cis men". It's males and females. Females have female reproductive systems that can get pregnant, males have male reproductive systems that produce semen and testosterone, become more muscular, can overpower women and in the most stripped down sense, can rape and impregnate them.

Women are more vulnerable due to being the ones who produce babies, so the reproductive differences are key to distinguishing the sexes. There is no meaning to "woman" that is not based on sex, that's the point.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

It is cis men. Trans women aren’t physically stronger than women and are marginalized by society unlike cis men. Most also can’t impregnate women and aren’t any more capable of rape than a natal woman.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The point is that we have the categories man and woman because they are important. They are central to the structure and function of society that you referred to yourself. The possibility that there may be people who are exceptions does not change the reason that the reproductive categories are fundamental to our understanding of how our social power dynamics works. That is why we need to keep biological categories clear.

"cis men" are not some secondary category. Men and women are the basic biological divisions. Some men may have disorders, treatments, surgeries or other reasons that these things don't apply, but there is no definitive category that "trans" applies to that makes it clear how they fit into a reproductive scheme. It's just a word people use about themselves when they feel like it'

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

It literally does determine that they can’t fit into your oversimplified strata by reproductive capacity. Transitioned trans women can’t sire children. Nor can most transitioned trans men bear them.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel like it’s so hard to discuss these things now because of things like self-ID. Transwomen or transmen can mean almost anyone, not just post-op transsexuals. In fact, we’re apparently a tiny minority of people under those umbrellas.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think unless you are at least talking about people on hormones the terms lose all meanings. Like I just don’t understand how someone with my dysphoria who is comfortable in their Cody can think of themselves as a trans woman.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

it's not my oversimplified strata, it's just biological reality, and you yourself suggested that there are social structures based on male and female. I am only reminding you that those structures are based on the biological differences between male and female. People will be exceptions to the standard, but the social structures are still based on a standard, and the categories refer to that. That is biological.

In any case trans women and men absolutely do have children, just as the opposing sex than the one they identify into. If you want to use a more specific definition of trans, that only allows for a post-op type, you need to get that clear with the rest of the trans movement.

But, it would not change the basic categories of male and female - the category of woman is still based on a sexed reality, not a trans woman simulacrum. Whether a trans woman is a sexed male or a desexed male, she is still not a sexed female.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Except it isn’t based on sex. A successfully transitioned trans woman is treated by society as a woman and an unsuccessfully treated trans woman is still treated as lesser. If it was based on sex that wouldn’t be the case.

If you’ve been on hormones long enough you cannot have children. It doesn’t require surgery.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

is treated by society as a woman

Right, but the category of "woman" that society understands is created by the biological realities of sex. That is all I am trying to get straight. Even if a trans woman can imitate that, the underlying thing that she is imitating is BASED on sex.