QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex?

submitted by SnowAssMan from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Cis men were physically stronger than natal women early in society and were able to over time erect structures to put men into positions of social power once more complex societies in evolved. Cis men hate women, that’s the reason for gendered society.

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

it's not "cis men". It's males and females. Females have female reproductive systems that can get pregnant, males have male reproductive systems that produce semen and testosterone, become more muscular, can overpower women and in the most stripped down sense, can rape and impregnate them.

Women are more vulnerable due to being the ones who produce babies, so the reproductive differences are key to distinguishing the sexes. There is no meaning to "woman" that is not based on sex, that's the point.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

It is cis men. Trans women aren’t physically stronger than women and are marginalized by society unlike cis men. Most also can’t impregnate women and aren’t any more capable of rape than a natal woman.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The point is that we have the categories man and woman because they are important. They are central to the structure and function of society that you referred to yourself. The possibility that there may be people who are exceptions does not change the reason that the reproductive categories are fundamental to our understanding of how our social power dynamics works. That is why we need to keep biological categories clear.

"cis men" are not some secondary category. Men and women are the basic biological divisions. Some men may have disorders, treatments, surgeries or other reasons that these things don't apply, but there is no definitive category that "trans" applies to that makes it clear how they fit into a reproductive scheme. It's just a word people use about themselves when they feel like it'

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

It literally does determine that they can’t fit into your oversimplified strata by reproductive capacity. Transitioned trans women can’t sire children. Nor can most transitioned trans men bear them.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel like it’s so hard to discuss these things now because of things like self-ID. Transwomen or transmen can mean almost anyone, not just post-op transsexuals. In fact, we’re apparently a tiny minority of people under those umbrellas.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think unless you are at least talking about people on hormones the terms lose all meanings. Like I just don’t understand how someone with my dysphoria who is comfortable in their Cody can think of themselves as a trans woman.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

it's not my oversimplified strata, it's just biological reality, and you yourself suggested that there are social structures based on male and female. I am only reminding you that those structures are based on the biological differences between male and female. People will be exceptions to the standard, but the social structures are still based on a standard, and the categories refer to that. That is biological.

In any case trans women and men absolutely do have children, just as the opposing sex than the one they identify into. If you want to use a more specific definition of trans, that only allows for a post-op type, you need to get that clear with the rest of the trans movement.

But, it would not change the basic categories of male and female - the category of woman is still based on a sexed reality, not a trans woman simulacrum. Whether a trans woman is a sexed male or a desexed male, she is still not a sexed female.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Except it isn’t based on sex. A successfully transitioned trans woman is treated by society as a woman and an unsuccessfully treated trans woman is still treated as lesser. If it was based on sex that wouldn’t be the case.

If you’ve been on hormones long enough you cannot have children. It doesn’t require surgery.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

is treated by society as a woman

Right, but the category of "woman" that society understands is created by the biological realities of sex. That is all I am trying to get straight. Even if a trans woman can imitate that, the underlying thing that she is imitating is BASED on sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If it isn’t categorized based on sex it definitionally isn’t based on sex. That’s what I’m saying.