QT but all can comment - How would you refute the argument that The phrase "transwomen are women" presupposes that there is a cultural role for women to fill?

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[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Turning woman from a physical descriptor into a “gender” that can be used by anyone makes it worse for females who are prescribed that gender.

It doesn't though. Allowing people to identify as whatever gender they choose for themselves would lead to less people being forced/prescribed a certain gender from birth. That's a natural implication. It normalizes identity-based gender, not expression-based gender.

I’m really not sure how else to say it unless you don’t understand how naturalizing gender harms females, then I feel like you need to get a better understanding feminism before engaging with these topics.

I feel pretty comfortable engaging in these topics, as they not only affect me but I have a heavy interest in feminism, feminist theory, literature, etc. If I wasn't, I wouldn't bother coming here to engage with a form of feminism I do not fully understand/am not willing to completely prescribe to. Besides, I don't engage in topics that I'm not particular knowledgeable in, or make conclusions without having a reasonable level of understanding of these topics.

but if you take an existing category, then you are making it about something other than sex

It's evidently more than sex, even in its current definition. Even so, there's no harm induced by an individual identifying as a woman and going about their lives. So long as that individual does not demand conformity to gender roles for other women to be valid as their gender nor claiming to speak for all women's experiences, there is no harm.

making them about sex avoid them being about gender (as much as that is possible)

I would agree with this if we didn't live in a gendered society. I would also argue making them about sex is unpragmatic in the linguistic sense. Either way, we will have to move on from this out of disagreement.

reinforces gender so it seems like it is moving us in the opposite direction of gender abolishion and making like more difficult for females and males, especially those of us who are gender nonconforming. I feel like many of my beliefs on this subject have a lot to do with being a feminine, gay child.

Again, I'm not reinforcing gender roles, I'm in direct opposition to it. A society using identity-based gender is far closer to the end goal of a postgenderist society than one using expression-based gender.

People believing in gender roles as natural hurts GNC kids the most.

Yes, which is how most people view and describe gender in the current sense, unfortunately. Ideally, we would eliminate this completely, but we don't live in an ideal world.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You earlier:

Gender abolition is going to take centuries.

This comment:

Allowing people to identify as whatever gender they choose for themselves would lead to less people being forced/prescribed a certain gender from birth.

You earlier:

I think it's unreasonable to think that people are going to change their way of thinking about gender and sex overnight.

So I’m confused about how you think that gender abolition would take hundred of years and people won’t change there views of gender and sex very quickly, but somehow allowing people to choose their gender would happen very quickly and we should focus on that instead? This seems like an extremely naive and unconsciously privileged take. Males choices are much more respected than those of females throughout the world. Allowing males to opt into womanhood naturalizes womanhood as being about something other then just being female for billions of females who won’t have the freedom that you have. I understand wanting volitional gender because you feel like it helped you, but you need to understand that this belief is coming from a place of privilege.

Even so, there's no harm induced by an individual identifying as a woman and going about their lives. So long as that individual does not demand conformity to gender roles for other women to be valid as their gender nor claiming to speak for all women's experiences, there is no harm.

There is harm though. That is the point I’ve been trying to make. If you accept it and you care about women, it will cause you very uncomfortable cognitive dissonance unfortunately. I’m sorry. I don’t see any way to avoid that. I can understand not wanting to accept it to avoid those feelings though so I won’t continue to restate it.

I would also argue making them about sex is unpragmatic in the linguistic sense.

Can you explain why? It seems like it’s worked fine so far.

Again, I'm not reinforcing gender roles, I'm in direct opposition to it.

If you are a male person who says you are a woman, you are reinforcing and naturalizing gender roles. Your behavior or presentation has nothing to do with it.