QT but all can comment - How would you refute the argument that The phrase "transwomen are women" presupposes that there is a cultural role for women to fill?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from (self.GCdebatesQT)

Unless we are going to argue that a transwoman belongs in the category "adult human female" we must have a culturally shared idea of what a woman is to know what a transwoman means when they say they "feel like" or identify as a woman. If we didn't know what a woman "was" or if it was only a biological designation these kinds of definitions would be total nonsense. Therefore these definitions rely on gender stereotypes and essentialism to be understandable.

Same thing holds true for "transmen are men" if you prefer to answer it that way.

all 62 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]divingrightintowork 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've been waiting for this answer - previously there has been a couple of things unique only to women (Even if not all women share them but even the absence of these things is unique to women - no man goes to the doctor because he isn't menstruating at 15, or can't get pregnant in spite of trying).

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah no matter how feminine a transwoman presents it is hard to see how they could ever share a complete female experience "being treated as a woman by most of society" is not the same as being an adult human female. It's like what Peaking was saying in their comment a sex vs. gender distinction.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m not really trying to defend TWAW/TMAM because I don’t really agree with it, but I feel like you can make a social argument about some trans people. Like if someone is consistently mistaken for a man or women despite not being one, people they interact with will treat them as if they were that (this isn’t most trans people though). But, I don’t think that makes someone actually a man or woman though any more that I’d become a doctor if changed my LinkedIn to say I was and people believed me.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I completely agree with this take. I think trans people can usually pass as their target sex and there's a good argument for trying to accommodate their desire to be seen that way as long as it isn't impacting other peoples' rights. It's when they say they literally are women or men based on "performing gender" that it really does reduce those terms to a bunch of roles and stereotypes

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am very often mistakenly taken as a woman in the internet or during calls (my voice is very soft and not deep at all, and I am activing very calmly).

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (36 children)

I don't think trans women must conform to some arbitrary state of femininity to be women, nor do I care if they conform to femininity so long as they are not saying they are women because of their conformity or claiming women must be feminine to be women (which, unfortunately, seems to be what many trans people are arguing).

Culturally speaking, we live under a societal structure where women are defined by femininity. I'd like to dismantle these gendered associations. Even with the elimination of these gendered associations, I don't think trans people are magically going away. While I do believe much of gender dysphoria is a product of being socialized in a gendered society (especially the aspects related to gender expression), I also support the notion there is a biological basis for the aspects of gender dysphoria related to distress around physiological characteristics.

At the end of the day, a world where a person chooses their gender based on their own sense of identity is far more ideal than the one we currently live in, where females are heavily conditioned in femininity regardless of their identity or their preferred gender expression. This doesn't mean we should have self identification laws (disagree with those absolutely - they should be based on sex), just that a person's gender (socially speaking) should simply be based on what they decide for themselves rather than some arbitrary characteristic of socialization.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

What is gender based on?

I mean, according to your comment it's whatever anyone decides. So if it's different for anyone, how can it be used to describe groups?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Oh no don't get me wrong. Currently, gender is based on cultural and social norms revolving around masculinity and femininity. I'm just saying I don't like that, because it's oppressive, especially to females (and to trans and GNC people for that matter). Making it a matter of self identification (not legally, but socially) would remove this idea of conformity vs non-conformity, gendered associations, and gendered socialization.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

But even in that case, what would it be based on? Would it just be a question of calling yourself something?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

Pretty much

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

And for some reasons, it should be limited only to womanhood and manhood, nothing else?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

No, it would be completely unrestricted based on the wide spectrum of identities such a concept would allow.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

So someone who identifies as a 5 years old should be respected and treated as a 5 years old? Someone who identifies as a doctor should be respected and treated as a doctor? Someone who identifies as a star should be respected and treated as a star? Someone who identifies as a disabled person should be treated and respected as a disabled person?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

We're talking about gender. Age, profession, and disabilities are observable realities (just like sex is).

Gender is not based in observable realities, it is an arbitrary construct designed with oppressive intentions. Therefore, we can redefine it and eventually eliminate it.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Age, professions and disabilities all have similar arbitrary constructs like gender, ageism (younger and older people are useless and not worthy of respect), ableism (people with disablities are less able than able-bodied people) and classism (that includes elevating people who have a certain job and vilifying people who have others).

They are all based on observable realities and social constructs designed to keep down certain categories were created.

Race is another thing that was made in the same way: race is to etnicity what gender is to sex.

Sexual orientation? Same. Do you think that pretending that anyone can be a lesbian has somehow destroyed homophobia? We are now at a point in which lesbians are told that they are bigots if they don' t accept males as sexual partners. Great job!!! Why is it that I am supposed to believe that pretending that men can be women will be more successfull?

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

a person's gender (socially speaking) should simply be based on what they decide for themselves rather than some arbitrary characteristic of socialization.

Do you mean gender presentation or gender identity? If the latter, the "pick and choose" option seems quite harmful given that we're talking about a hierarchy. Men are the dominant, revered sex. Men are the default human. Girls are socialized into a woman-hating culture. Telling a girl who hates female gender stereotypes and gender presentation that her preferences mean she's really a boy or man is regressive, given that the female social and sexual role is considered inferior to the male one.

Instead of strong, aggressive, tough, masculine girls being told that their sex has nothing to do with their personality, they are instead being told that their personality may mean that they aren't really girls, that it's perfectly valid for them to choose to be a boy or man instead. Those of us who are left acknowledging our biological sex are then assumed to have a "cis" identity and are told that we feel aligned with those negative stereotypes.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is well said. I agree. I don't think it would be as much of a problem for people to want to identify as something that wasn't supported by their biology in a world without gender and gender socialization. A lot of the problems are caused by realities of stuff like male violence rates under patriarchy but I'm skeptical that things like self- ID are actually breaking down gender norms.

I agree that trans people would probably still exist as dysphoria and other reasons some people feel "trans" are not just going to vanish although they may lessen if people have less pressure to follow gender roles or better these vanish entirely

[–]IceColdLover 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You can't refute it because it is true.

Apart from:

1) people with gender dysphoria, which should really be seen as a mental illness that leads to false perceptions much like schizophrenia and various eating disorders, where you could say some men view themselves as women for reasons entirely out of their control, and 2) people with autogynephilia, and for whom presentation as a woman is due to fulfilling a sexual fetish,

many trans women cite their reasons for "feeling" like a woman by referencing cultural norms and gender roles assigned to women that they wish to fulfill more than those assigned to men, for instance preferring dolls over action figures, relating more to girls and women as friends, feeling they are "too feminine" to be men, not wanting to play combat sports, wanting to wear dresses and heels, and so on. These all relate to cultural roles of women and of men.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, they deny this all the time but you need some idea of what a woman is to be able to identify as one and it pretty much has to be based on these stereotypes if it's going to include people who aren't female.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

The question you're asking only comes up when you ridgedly apply biology to both culture and language. While trans women aren't female and trans men aren't male they can still move through society as men or women respectively. Do we have a shared cultural understanding of what a man is? Yes. This understanding is, like any shared knowledge vague and no individual will conform to it completely. Even if we reduced cultural understanding to sex, then trans people could still exist. The bar for passing would be a lot higher admitetly but that's beside the point.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The shared cultural understandings of man and woman outside of sex is pure sexism though. Why on earth would anyone want to maintain that over the realities of sex that impact day to day life?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Our current understanding is sexist. I have already addressed that even if reduced to sex, the concept of cultural understanding and belonging would not change. Just the bar for passing.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So how are transwomen women except via sexist understandings of womanhood?

Does passing make a transwoman a woman somehow?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Your questions seem strange to me. It seems like the prerequisite for these is that any understanding of womanhood, even one based in sex, is sexist as long is it exists on a social level. Unfortunately it's impossible to eliminate the social level.

Yes it does. Not biologically mind you, but socially.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No, I’m just confused. Isn’t any understanding of man and woman not based purely on sex sexism?

Surely we can eliminate garbage ideas like women are anything other than adult human females.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How? Patterns exist. You can eliminate the harmful mindset that is sexism but not the pattern.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How much of the pattern will remain without the mindset? How much of those patterns are influenced by gendered socialisation? How many are inherent?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

None are inherent. All of them are currently influenced by gendered society. But would they die down if this external influence ceased? I don't think so. Trends would still exist. Take a big group of people and you'll always see a pattern.

We might not be able to predict what this pattern looks like, but its quite certain that it would exist. Or do you think that everything would be more or less homogeneous?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No idea but I doubt anyone would still be claiming skirts are more female.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The shared clultural understanding that transwomen rely on is based on gender stereotypes though. Passing is based on appearing as the sex based on performing gender stereotypes. In a genderless world, people would still have dysphoria or autogynephilia or whatever and maybe some would still believe they were "born in the wrong body" but I don't see how they'd pass without gender stereotypes to rely on

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I have two major questions in this case.

1) what is a stereotype and when is it sexist 2) what would a post stereotype world look like.

Also. If a trans woman transitions early she could easily pass, the later the more effort is needed, but still possible, even without coding

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think any characteristic assumed to apply to a group of people is a stereotype. I mean obviously taking voice lessons to try to sound more "womanly" is way less misogynistic than copying sissy porn but both are attaching social characteristics to biological sex and therefore upholding gender roles.

I almost feel like to move past gender we would need to attach way less social importance or perhaps even none at all to biological sex. Like people could see boiological sex like hair color. Something you notice when you meet someone but don't really make a big deal of or change how yo see the person at all. I admit that's going to be hard to achieve as biological sex is such an important part of human life (and GC theory stresses this importance of course) it's going to be hard to get to a pont where we just do not attach stereotypes to it at all - even positive or neutral ones. I think this may be one of the hardest things about abolishing gender actually. (would be interested in other GC opinions on this actually).

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks. That was really helpful.

I think the core of my confusion was a misunderstanding of the word stereotype. In my mind a stereotype is something that is enforced. Where you expect everyone to be like that. Things that exist without expectation are patterns. The voice example fits great here. The voice thing is a pattern. Just because deep female voices are rare compared to higher ones. Vice versa for males.

The stereotype in media, that certain people sound a certain way doesn't really help. But I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Tbese patterns would, at least imo still exist in a post gender world. Though we may not now what exactly these patterns would look like.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Pattern is something that IS happening and always or often repeating. Stereotype is something that you THINK is happening. Even definitions are "stereotype is an over-generalized belief about a particular category of something or someone" and "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing".

If you see that europeans on average are taller than asians - it is pattern. If you say that asians are all good in math and nolifers - it is stereotype (and a racist one).

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's exactly my point. Patterns exist. So they can be used for passing regardless of expectations.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I get it that you seem to think stereotypes are negative things but they don't have to be ( see the "model minority" thing for example) It still puts pressure on people to conform to the way they are "supposed to be" according to the stereotype and still limits their ability to operate comfortably outside of that. The voice example is an interesting one because it's at least largely physically caused. Differences like that would exist in a post-gender world (just like differences in things like athletic ability). I guess it would just fall on people in that world to make sure that physical differences between sexes didn't lead to a new set of gender differences. It actually made me kind of depressed to think about though as your prior comment made me realize just how hard it will be to eradicate social differences between the way men and women are treated in society.