Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita,A Masonic Blueprint For The Subversion Of The Catholic Church,共濟會最高的永久指令顛覆天主教會的藍圖pdf : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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[–]JohnRaymond[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

There are Sedevacantists who read papal documents out of context, and in opposition to universal ordinary magesterium. Much like Protestants reading bible. These Sedevacantists are not Catholic. They certainly are fierce. They oppose BOD, invincible ignorance for non Catholics, bob.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, but the point is, no matter how sincere, nobody can die outside the Church and be saved. This means the non-Catholics who are saved are somehow in the Church, even if they are not in the body of the Church. This means it is not a heresy regardless of what traditionalists say.

[–]JohnRaymond[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The Catholic Church proclaimed it, and you are interpreting against Catholic Church.

You're wrong.

[–]JohnRaymond[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I researched Father Cekada, and found this. Btw, I was confused just as you are. Feeneyites get this wring.

http://www.fathercekada.com/2008/10/29/baptism-of-desire-perfect-charity-or-contrition/

I admire you greatly

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The Feeneyites are wrong, just as those who claim that everyone who is not explicitly Catholic is outside the Church. But then when you think about it means that the Church is bigger than the visible Catholic Church, so subsists as I see it describes exactly what dogma from before Vatican II implied. This would be authentic development of dogma, not a contradiction. Note, it does not mean that heretics are safe in their heresies, but just they can potentially be be saved.

Unless there is some other reason it is heretical?

If you say that nobody can die outside the Church be saved, then you say that people of good will can be saved, then the only way to avoid a logical contradiction is to say that people of good will can potentially be in the Church, and that would mean the Church is technically bigger than what it looks like, though the Catholic Church is the pillar that upholds it.

Thanks, I'm not arguing for the sake of it. I am just seeking the truth.

[–]JohnRaymond[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're trying monumentally to be logical. Just as Feeneyites. Stick with Father Cekada... Because he goes by uom.

If a Methodist dies with perfect contrition, he's dying inside Catholic church. He might be surprised, but he is Catholic.

Novusordowatch haxs tradcast on this very topic. Also Father Utley

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Of course I'm being logical. Metaphysically, contradictions don't exist. So if your theology leads to contradictions, either your reasoning is wrong or your premises are wrong. I am studying pre-Vatican II theology, and the manual I am using does not promote what traditionalists say, whether R and R or sedevacantism. 98%, say, is accurate, but that 2% leads to either rejecting an ecumenical council or accepting an ecumenical council.

Syllogism:

All [who are saved] are [in the Church].

Some [who are not Catholic] are [who are saved].

Therefore some [who are not Catholic] are [in the Church].

I'll stop trying now, since to me it is clear "subsist in" is not a heresy, but you won't budge.

[–]JohnRaymond[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Try this... On this most complicated of subjects.

https://novusordowatch.org/2015/04/tradcast-004-is-here/ I said you trying hard to be logical... I didn't say you were.