Is there any convincing argument that African-Americans have not overall benefited from slavery in the long run?

submitted by 8thmonitor from (self.AskSaidIt)

I believe slavery of innocent people is wrong. But the average African-American lives a much better life in America than the average Sub-Saharan.

It seems obvious. People seem to claim slavery underdeveloped Sub-Saharan Africa without any proof. I wonder is there is some leftist subreddit that will answer my question.

I always thought the American Colonization Society had the best overall solution for slavery.

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[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think so. But, ethicallly, the idea that the end justifies the means is problematic.

For instance, is forcibly medicating people with poison okay because there are too many people in the world? Is it okay to corrupt people with your media and banks because you think by re-engineering societies you can build a fictional better world? Is it okay to incite a nuclear war and kill billions so you can build a better world?

[–]brimshae 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ethicallly, the idea that the end justifies the means is problematic.

Have you heard commie rhetoric?

[–]Tom_Bombadil 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Is there any convincing argument that African-Americans have not overall benefited from slavery in the long run?

"Convincing argument"?

You're enslaved right now. You need a license or a permit to do anything.

"Freeing the slaves" was the pretext to enslave everyone.

[–]UbiquitousCultOfSelf 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Psh, and don't get a man started on eminent domain. But, well that was a thing as far back as king George, or no, as far back as "Queen" Jezebel.

[–]transbob 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You need a license or a permit to do anything.

In many states, you need a license to counsel another person about basic life issues.

I understand requiring a license to perform heart surgery or to fly an airplane.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You need a license to cut hair.

[–]karma_police 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It doesn't matter what you and others want to believe or want to argue?

History is a combination of evidence about the past and the analyses of that evidence. It is NOT your argument about the past.

Ron DeSantis's fascist attacks on the Florida education system are a reminder to us all of the damage one can do to a society with these tactics. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/20/florida-black-history-teaching-standards-00107067

It is a lie that African American slaves benefitted "in the long run" from their captivity. The arguments against this lie don't bear mentioning. Read about the history of African Americans, rather than participate in attempts by white suprematists to divide the country.

[–]monkeymagic 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

history is a combination of what you are saying it is and an absolute mountain of bullshit.

what you have available to you so far as american history is concerned is mostly boosterism and other forms of propaganda. viewing any of it as absolute truth is beyond absurd.

[–]karma_police 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your incredibly broad generalizations indicate to me that you don't read much history. And I've not referred to 'absolute truth'.

[–]ExplodingToasterOven 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

lol! The vast vast majority of them brought across DIED. Survival past 1 year was something like less than 30%. About 12-18% died just on the 2-3 month boat ride across. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1070565/middle-passage-death-rate-by-destination-1501-1866/ And even in the americas, strange parasites and respiratory diseases killed slave who had been there for some time, or were simply born there.. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2571776/pdf/jnma00275-0089.pdf

For new slaves there was also the issue of "seasoning" where you try to beat the rebelliousness out of any deposed rules, hangers on, and other members of a regime who were previously higher status. https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/history-of-slavery/americas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasoning_(slavery)

And even after the civil war, and even the de-segregation of the 60s-80s, there were always plenty of systems to keep the masses of them down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_hypothesis

Relatively speaking, the ones RETURNED to Africa, Nigeria in particular, had FAR FAR more agency, and choice in how they ended up in society, and determined their own future. Those in places where they won their freedom, Brazil, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, you've got some black families who climbed back on top in a one hell of a hurry. And the masses who were just average nobodies, and did simply ok.

Compare this to places like Mississippi and Alabama where you've got Black majorities, and they just don't have fucking shit to show for it. Incarceration is sky high, education is a joke even for the white people, overall health is just fucked.

One could argue that from the 1920s-1970s, they did better than their African cousins, and african slaves transported to other regions. Downstream from this, the third world kept advancing, and north america just kinda fucking gave up.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol! The vast vast majority of them brought across DIED.

100% of them died eventually, ffs.

[–]William_World 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_hypothesis

I think weathering is true. But I have a feeling the seasoning wiki is exaggerated like the holocaust

[–]turtlew0rk 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the litmus test for this would be an argument that convinces an African American of this.

In other words, no. Of course not.

[–]ActuallyNot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But the average African-American lives a much better life in America

  • That's not the average catured African. Many died crossing over, or were beaten to death on the farms. Then, post slavery, there were many massacres by whites who didn't like middle class blacks.

  • African Americans aren't directly African. Rape by slave owners is a significant (more than 25%) genetic contribution to the average genetic heritage.

  • Development isn't happiness. It's not obvious that swapping knowledge of your language and culture, your family and ancestory, your town and identity for steady electricity and better stocked supermarkets is "better".

than the average Sub-Saharan.

Slavery has probably negatively impacted them too.

People seem to claim slavery underdeveloped Sub-Saharan Africa without any proof.

Colonization certainly did.

I always thought the American Colonization Society had the best overall solution for slavery.

Post them back to Africa, because there pluarity of their ancestory is from there?

Surely you should do the Europeans as well, or else your motivations look simply racist.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In what way did colonisation under develop sub-Saharan Africa?

Pretty much all the wealth difference between African and other developing countries can be explained by the number of people lost to tropical diseases like malaria. Now there is widely available treatment the economies can grow.

[–]AmerlcanMuskrat 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In what way did colonisation under develop sub-Saharan Africa?

Exploitation of natural resoureces and manpower while keeping the profits adn corrupting the regional politics. It still happens, but there is a lot written about the colonial period. One can start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes

[–]Brewdabier 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For a few it's better because they worked for a better life, they we have tthe ones who use guilt to get what they want.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Getting what they want is still better than most people in Africa can hope for, even if what they choose leads to them having an short and unhealthy life.

[–]StalwartJames 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Slavery has contributed to discrimination against African-Americans.

[–]jet199 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then why were black families more stable and upwardly mobile 100-50 years ago than now?

Their problems aren't due to discrimination born out of slavery but social change since the 1970s.

[–]AmerlcanMuskrat 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then why were black families more stable and upwardly mobile 100-50 years ago than now?

They were not.

Their problems aren't due to discrimination born out of slavery but social change since the 1970s.

False.

[–]Goingoutforawalk 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The slave trade is alive and well in the Middle East and several African countries. But that is ignored to concentrate on more recent history. We need to educate ourselves about slavery past and present. We all need to know how to recognize it. Death to slavers.

[–]raclarke5179 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I believe that African Americans do not necessarily benefit from being in America other than an increase in the standard of living because they frequently get persecuted for confusing Moral Values and embarrassing religious choices. For instance, Malcomb X fights against police brutality and then gets murdered by the nation of Islam according to what I read in his autobiography. He was also a drug dealer so it's very confusing what you are supposed to believe as a black person. I frequently get attacked by whites and foreigners who try to heretically enforce their religious and moral values on me.

[–]IkeConn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

On the job training. Lots of former slaves had skills. Mostly farm related.

[–]William_World 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think that's what the seasoning mainly was, teaching them about farming. And not many slaves escaped because they had it good on the farm.

[–]HangTuah 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Muslims during Andalusia times had many slaves from Eastern Europe. The origin of the word slave is slavic.

[–]shatabee5 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Today the oligarchy forces people to do things because they say it's for their own good. Is that a good idea? We should trust them?

The objection is the lack of choice.

Were Africans who were ripped away from their homes and families given a choice?

Maybe white people should be made slaves in Africa to repay the debt.

[–]Vulptex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Maybe white people should be made slaves in Africa to repay the debt.

How is that any different?

[–]shatabee5 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm pointing out that if white people think it was a good deal for Africans to be put into slavery then they should try it themselves.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Africans weren't ripped away from their families by white people.

They were taken by other Africans then transported to the coast for sale.

The west African empires conducted human sacrifice and tortured political opponents to death at that time so slavery was the soft option.

[–]shatabee5 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that's a junior high level, prize-winning rationalization.

[–]bucetao6969 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think the phrase is wrong but it's the equivalent of saying "I See Good Things About Hitler, Also". It's technically true, but when you say that you give off the wrong vibe. I also think people already know "Hitler had good things about him" so it's not like you need to convince them about this.

In this day and age, you don't say things that would sound horrible on a headline even with context.

[–]TitsAndWhiskey 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol no. Nor is it a real issue. Kamala is full of shit as usual.

[–]Dune1032 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The descendants of Black slaves do live a better life than many Blacks in sub-Saharan Africa. This is an argument against reparations.

[–]zyxzevn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is a grey area, but much much larger.

In general. I am pro freedom.
Keeping people in some form of imprisonment (for no reason) or any form of slavery is bad.
As an "employer" you get people that are not working to help you, and probably hate you.
Slavery has been everywhere in all continents not related to race, but more related to tribe or state or .. beauty.
Saudi Arabia is today keeping people as slaves, and they also regard their females as slaves.
Note: the left will attack you, if you talk about that.

As a freedom supporting person, you can be a leader of people,
but not keep people as slaves or as sheep.
It would be interesting how that would fit in a culture that is not ready for that, though.

There are some people that had milder ownership of slaves, which was already in Greece, where
slaves were still considered humans. In the middle-ages war enemies were used as slaves,
which was more like a punishment.
Middle age rich farmers had people that owned nothing were used like slaves.
But most farmers were treated very much like slaves, with high tax burdens and
destruction of their farm and life-stock as punishment for not complying.
Lower classes in some countries are also nearly treated like slaves, but still have a community.
To escape slavery, they need to escape the status that is put onto them.

And in our modern day, we have many companies trying to employ people as wage-slaves.
This is more in China, Japan, and in the US.

The Great Reset is also a slave-system, with social credit and AI-made distractions.
That is what the World Economic Forum has planned for us.

[–]TheMaharishi 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Their biggest win. Was being bred to have gigantic dicks. Sub Saharan dicks are not up to snuff ;-)

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some have, some haven't is the answer.

I really don't think you can get a clear outcome for a whole group, especially now the standard of living is rising in Africa and health across all groups in the US is so poor.