GC: Why is sex change impossible? Have any biologists said it's impossible to change sex and why?

HangingWithMyNothing · 2021-08-02T13:38:29+00:00

You may find words to label that status of being a man with genitals removed, and you may argue he is not a man or you may argue he is a man but I will not argue either side and simply call him a victim of mutilation.

Are you claiming someone becomes sexless and stops being a man or woman if they remove their sex organs?

HangingWithMyNothing · 2021-07-31T18:16:40+00:00

Can you answer a few questions please?

Why is sex change impossible? Have any biologists said it's impossible to change sex and why?

I hear time and time again that if someone takes hormones, cuts their genitals and attaches a neovagina or neopenis to themselves, that's a "sex change", and they somehow change from male to female, or female to male.

Would that really be sex change though? If sex change is impossible, can you explain why it is, even if the sex organs are removed and neopenis or neovagina are present?

Have biologists explained why sex change is impossible? Any articles, blogs, tweets, or really, anything I can read on the subject?

Also a question about the definitions of male or female. Since the definitions are on the basis of development, what do you think of this comment that finds issues within that definition: https://imgur.com/I1sgKTY

So, what determines your sex is: if you have ovaries you're female, testes you're male, but on rare occasions there is ambiguity about whether you're male or female, e.g. maybe you have ovotestes. Do people ever e.g. have one ovary and one testis?

Anyway, let's consider the case of those trans women who undergo a full medical transition using this criterion. They no longer have their testes.

Does this mean they are no longer male? Note that if we did say they are no longer male, we still cannot claim they're female under this criterion because they haven't acquired ovaries, so what sex are they in this case? Are we to say the have no sex?

However, I think we can say they are still male because they were born male and developed the way they did because they're male and removal of the testes does not undo that. All the surgery and hormone therapy is achieving is to make the male externally resemble a female. What makes you male or female is thus down to whether you develop testes or ovaries in the first place, not what might happen to your body via surgery or unfortunate accident or illness subsequently. Would you agree?

This does then raise the question: Suppose medical technology was such that we could give trans women functional ovaries and wombs, etc in future. Would we regard that as a genuine change of sex, despite the prior male developmental history?

HangingWithMyNothing · 2021-07-30T03:19:30+00:00

Meh. If they are males, no matter how much they "look like women" they are males and should be treated as such. No more reading necessary.

HangingWithMyNothing · 2021-07-30T02:52:40+00:00

So CAIS are males? As I said, if they are males they should not be called "woman", "female" or "she/her". The reason they are "raised as girls" is because doctors surgically remove their testes in infancy most times. Doesn't change the fact they are male. Males with CAIS "identifying" as women because they somehow "look like women", wear dresses, put on make up, and have mutilated body parts doesn't change the fact they are males. They are males with cut off testes who "look like women". And if I think someone is a female, only to learn they are a male with CAIS, I will 1- feel lied to, and 2- stop ever using "she/her" on him. I'd use he/him and treat him as the man he is no matter how much he "passes", just like a non-intersex man who "passes" isn't a woman, even if you think that's a woman you're looking at or talking to at first. If someone cuts the dick of a boy, brainwashes him into thinking he's a girl, and the boy grows up to surgically mutilate himself in a way he "passes" as a woman, to the point you wouldn't know it's a man unless he tells you so, does it mean he's a woman? Heck no. How about dropping the hypocrisy and treating CAIS as the men they actually are, hmm?

HangingWithMyNothing · 2021-07-30T02:32:31+00:00

But I want a direct answer, are CAIS male or female? No beating around the bush. The answer is either, 1) male, or 2) female. Which one is it? Reminder that CAIS have testes.

Also, this has a lot to do with "trans". If CAIS are male who think they are women and get in women's spaces just because they think they are women, it means "identifying" as a woman somehow makes a man a woman, and non-intersex men will use it too to get in women's spaces.

If CAIS are men, I'm never going to let them anywhere close to me or other women in our space. And I'm never going to use she/her on them. They should get the same treatment as non-intersex men who think they are women. A disorder shouldn't be put on a pedestal, enough said.

HangingWithMyNothing · 2021-07-30T02:06:39+00:00

If there is no such thing as being "socially female" then no, CAIS are not "socially female" and aren't some exception that can claim they are "socially female". Intersex are either male or female. An intersex male who thinks he's a woman doesn't get to be considered a woman, or invade women's spaces.

CAIS aren't special. You don't get to make people think CAIS are female when they aren't. Unless you want to open the door to the TRAs generally wanting to be "socially female" too, because apparently all it takes to be a female is "identifying" as female, and being thought of as a female by society because of your stereotypical roles, clothing, make up, disorders and surgically mutilated body parts, am I right /s

Either count all men, even non-intersex ones who think they are women, as "socially female" or drop it and do not consider any man, even the intersex ones, "socially female" because "identity" =/= sex.

HangingWithMyNothing