all 61 comments

[–]jet199 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

So basically before money life was one big popularity contest.

That would have been fun for most of us here.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

[deleted]

    [–]jet199 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    "We valued the exchange of love"

    What do you think that means?

    It means people were valued on the friends and relations they had. If you were a loner or someone who didn't fit you weren't important no matter how much use you were to the group.

    It's all nonsense any way. We know the native Americans had a debt based society just like all pre-currency cultures. Rather than having your wealth in numbers hiden away somewhere you had a small number of elite people who were creditors and a large number of people who were indebted. You and everyone else would have to carry your status around in their heads at all times. Ever heard of a potlatch?

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    This didn't occur in every tribe, and you are silly if you think it did. Loners were allowed to live in different societies, unlike today, where you MUST pay up to a corrupt few, where you MUST use the services of a corruptible many or else you are seen as lower-class pariahs. Edit: seriously, how many tribes/nations have you studied? They were vastly different in many ways.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    They are simply defending their life's work. If you spend all your time and effort on attaining money or financial stability, and someone comes along and says that all that effort simply was never required to live a fulfilling life, then it stands to reason that they would lash out at it. They literally cannot imagine a society that doesn't operate off of human greed and monetary wealth.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I have great respect for the red people of the Americas. They lasted much longer than most clan systems did when faced with the industrial beast. I can't help but join in.

      [–]ReeferMadness 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

      That is why no one ever put any effort into advancing that civilization. I'm sure it was wonderful in winter when the food ran short and the weak starved off. There is a very limited amount of people that can be sustained over winter on hunting and gathering.

      [–][deleted]  (7 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]ReeferMadness 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

        You are a moron. I'm not "dissing" anyone, I'm pointing out how that type of society is doomed to stagnate and not develop. It is inevitable that they will be conquered by a stronger society eventually.

        You have a romanticized picture of Native culture that fails to acknowledge reality.

        [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

        You have been sold a lie about "civilization" and it shows. It's not romanticizing history to look at what actually occured. Two opposing worldviews clashed in America, and wickedness ruled the day. Please suck corporate dick some more, please. Your masters are giddy at the thought.

        [–]jet199 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

        "Wickedness." Hunter/gatherer societies survive by limiting the population because they can't control their food supply. Infanticide is common. War, to kill off the young men, is constant. It's a hard life not a good one.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

        Hm, a bunch of statements which have nothing to do with what we are talking about. You really hate the past, don't you?

        [–]Chipit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

        These people literally lived in the Stone Age. I don't think we should be taking advice from them about how to live life. They spun their wheels for centuries on some of the richest land on Earth, never doing anything or progressing in any way.

        "We had no money" is an admission of no technology advancement. They also didn't have the wheel, bronze working, a theory of disease or paved roads. Idolizing them is just advancing the discredited "noble savage" theory.

        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

        The fact that you act like this is depicting a "noble savage" theory proves that you are biased. You are incredibly focused on western ideals of "civilization".

        [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

        You say that like it's some kind of crime. It's not. I'm a westerner.

        You absolutely are peddling the noble savage narrative. It's a lie. These people were just like us, only without all our advantages. They had the chance to grow and progress, and instead chose stagnation. If your civilization does not advance, what are you doing wasting your lives?

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

        I can't change your mind, I can only use careful language. I'm fine with all you conservative, and or, industrial folks lashing out. Those with more cautious minds will see that I have not been supporting some "noble savage" theory. I'm simply willing to acknowledge the good in certain tribes, and then go on to acknowledge the fact that modern "civilization" has disposed of that good for something lesser.

        You cannot comprehend because you are focused on the physical. You then think that I am focused on the mystical, as if I conflate the natives into something greater than they were. It's almost like someone poked at your ego, almost as though you identify with modern understanding.

        [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

        I'm simply willing to acknowledge the good in certain tribes, and then go on to acknowledge the fact that modern "civilization" has disposed of that good for something lesser.

        Modern civilization has done much, much more than any tribe. Tell me, did any of these tribes have democracy? Of course not, that's a Western idea. Did they enrich themselves with diversity? Of course not, they were ethnostates (alt-right values). They did keep an open borders policy, though, which I will concede is to their credit. Did they give equal rights to minorities? Did they use technological advancement to engineer a new and better kind of human? I can go on like this all day long.

        If you want to say that stone age tribes were some kind of paradise, you're just wrong. Life was nasty, brutish, and short. Romanticizing them is folly. And yes, it is the noble savage stereotype, long ago thoroughly debunked.

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        The Iroquois Confederation had a working form of democracy, unlike what America has, where it's more of an oligarchy.

        You are foolish.

        [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        A confederation is a crappy form of democracy. It's what the Confederate States of America had. We crushed them and burned down their lands. Pray tell, did this confederation practice capital punishment? Or slavery? What was their opinion of Africans? Gosh, they were much alike, weren't they?

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Your hate speaks volumes.

        [–][deleted]  (6 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

          The whole world is in disorder because of modern life

          This is completely false. Things are better than they've ever been, for the majority of humanity, and they're only getting better. Today is better than yesterday, and tomorrow will be better still. The poorest of humanity are the major beneficiaries. Sounds like you've been listening to some stinkin' thinkin'! Stephen Pinker addresses this at length. For which he has been attacked and villified.

          [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

          Physical needs are being met by and large, still there are countless who go without (you'd probably blame them wholly for this) and our emotional needs are drowning under the weight of countless distractions, which many ask for but don't need. Our mental and psychological needs are actively being suppressed, unlike certain societies in the past, where there existed far more freedom and stability.

          [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          our emotional needs are drowning under the weight of countless distractions, which many ask for but don't nee

          OOOOOOOHHHHH

          You're talking about wealthy white westerners. OK you make so much more sense now.

          I was talking about the entirety of humanity. Wealthy white westerners hardly make up 1%. Yes, for the lower 99% out there, their lives are better than they've ever been, and only getting better every day. The 1% are very famously blind to the 99%, so I get where you're coming from now.

          [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          You are adorable. My family is full of non-white westerners, and they have far different things to say about their own, westernized societies than what you seem to say. Are you saying this is only a problem for rich white people?

          It's obviously a problem for you too, whatever race or class you are in.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Why is there a think called Stone Age?

            Because they had no tools made of anything but stone. They had no way of refining or creating objects of copper, of bronze, and especially not iron. Phases Western culture passed through thousands of years ago. The point of having culture is to progress. To get better, to improve, to make better people. Not to wallow in primitivism for centuries on end.

            [–]Zahn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

            Native American cultures are often erroneously portrayed as living in some type of social utopia before Euros showed up. While they did have some good aspects, they were still overwhelmingly brutal on average. Survival of the fittest, women as human chattel, torture, and virtually no concept of humane compassion ever crossed their minds.

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

            They are more often portrayed as being brutal savages, you are a fool. Only new age leftists think they had a utopia. You are building up a straw man to knock down.

            [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

            They are more often portrayed as being brutal savages

            Bullshit! Point to this. Point to anything today that says this. Are you really that old that you haven't read anything since the 1890s?

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            I am a young person and went to both conservative private schools and liberal public schools. At both places I was taught the same watered down history where the Natives were savages and just desperately needed "civilization". You are a drone, Chipit.

            [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            What's your reply to encountering uncontacted stone age tribes? Help them become civilized, or let them keep dying every time there's a famine?

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Watch them cautiously to protect them from corporations, supply them food or medicine when we see it's needed, make sure they aren't harming other tribes or nearby settlements. Beyond that, leave them to their own volition. You know, be rational and mature.

            [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Can't do that. UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Appplies to every human on the planet. If anyone gets denied their rights, it is our responsibility - nay, our duty - to step in and set things to rights. With a land invasion if necessary. It's called "R2P", Responsibility to Protect.

            "Leave them to their own volition." Wow, that's heartless. Like leaving the Jews to the Nazis?

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            You are high and mighty, all fear the powerful weight of the Chipit! /s

            [–]Sonofzeus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

            Pffft ya ok

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

            But her question stays: How did they get along so well for so long ?

            And i personally had no problem with some stupid old men dying off finally: Trump, Gates, Fauci, Biden, Pompeo, etc.

            What arguments for their so called "leadership" would these guys have if there was no money and no MSM? Right: None.

            But they'd be probably be chased out of their tribes beforehand anyway for the Dark Triad being so strong in them.

            In smaller societies it is harder to lie all day long, because people are actually watching each other more closely.

            [–]ReeferMadness 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

            Do you get along with all your family members? Does no one in your family lie? Do you really think you know all your cousins secrets?

            The question is "why would anyone believe the claim that they had no internal conflict, especially when there is so much evidence of incredible brutality shown to other tribes?"

            Scalping, for example, was done to live victims. Some tribes would also torture prisoners for days until they died to appease their god. Yet we are supposed to believe that these people were morally superior to whites? Sounds like pure racist propaganda to me.

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

            I didn't claim that. I just mentioned that the question stays, as it still does.

            A family without conflict doesn't exist, afaic. But that is not the point here.

            Of course they are morally superior to (whoever) because they didn't industrialize and automatize murder and wars because they lacked the technology for this.

            And even if they could have done it like the immigrants from Europe i doubt that they actually had done it because of their beliefs.

            They also respected their natural environment which our "leaders" tell us to destroy till we can't live in it anymore.

            Scalping is a religious thing. You have to respect their culture.

            Waterboarding and other CIA-approved torture methods and concentration camps are way worse, imo.

            I never read of a concentration camp built by American natives, e.g. .

            [–]ReeferMadness 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

            i doubt that they actually had done it because of their beliefs.

            First off you don't know their beliefs because they did not have a written language. So no books, ho history, no laws. So where did you get this idea that you know what their beliefs were? You were lied to.

            If you look at known behavior ie the fact that the Soux used the guns and horses they got from settlers to wage a genocide on every tribe within riding distance, you can clearly see that what you believe is utter bullshit.

            I didn't claim that.

            You didn't use those words but that is what you are claiming when you go on and on with your bullshit beliefs about how they wouldn't do the evil things white people did. Why not? What evidence is there, because everything I see points to the opposite conclusion.

            That they didn't doesn't mean that they wouldn't if they could.

            Not having the ability to do bad things doesn't make you morally superior.

            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

            Not destroying your environment does make you morally superior.

            And the is a lot of written stuff about their beliefs. Just not from themselves.

            Because the European immigrants exterminated them for most parts very quickly obviously you can't read all about their beliefs but you can at least read something.

            This presupposes you want to.

            [–]ReeferMadness 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

            Not doing something you have no power to do is not a reflection of your character.

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

            The environmental argument stands anyway.

            [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            They raped and destroyed the environment every time they got the chance. And why wouldn't they? Humans are a destructive force towards Mother Nature. They grow out of control, like a bacteria on a petri dish, until they consume all available food and then starve. Only reason that didn't happen to us is because of our amazing technology that keeps feeding us.

            [–][deleted]  (3 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

              They're not called "Indians", they are Native Americans. That's a racist term. Pretty much cements the idea that your idea of these stone age peoples is frozen half a century in the past or more.

              [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              There have been Native scholars who are actually Native. They've existed ever since assimilation was full blown in the Great Plains. I'll go through my books and name a few in an edit. We can know the opposing viewpoints from different sources, but as another user said, unless we could go back in time and really see it occur, we may not be able to discern full truth.

              I know I won't get my truths from the Christian missionaries and Jesuit priests who have long been the definitive sources on the subject of defeated clan-systems.

              [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

              Oh my gosh, it shows now, the ignorance! We can't know their customs or beliefs? You are not worth discussing this topic with. I hope any lurkers spend more time studying tribal politics and customs, unlike you.

              [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

              It's because they just murdered the enemy tribes with stone age weapons.

              Well, all but the young women. Those were kidnapped and raped or sold into slavery. Their bones are the only ones missing from the massacre pits.

              [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

              You act like every tribe did the same shit their neighbors did, and for the same reasons. You are uneducated on the diverse topic of tribal customs.

              [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

              Humans are assholes. It's in our nature to ruin things and murder each other. No matter where or what era.

              [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

              It's in our nature to be influenced and redirected. That is not our inherent nature, and if you believe that it is, you open yourself up to more of the same. Does it work for you?

              [–]Comatoast 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

              I won't disagree with you. We're very easily led and manipulated to conform to group standards. However, it is in our nature to protect ourselves from potential threats. How a threat is seen can be linked with how a culture is set up to deal with outsiders, but a tribe that ignores the necessity of territory protection wouldn't likely have lasted very long as a tribe in the first place due to other tribes with their own ideals for what they want for their people. Think about starvation, and what may have been done in times of strife. If an outside tribe has food, but refuses to trade for it out of lack of enough of their own resources, there could potentially be a violent situation that arises. We're above animals within the sphere of complex thought, but that just gives more context to what drives us.

              I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on these matters, and until we've got a time machine and a reliable way to observe those various tribes of the Americas we can only rely on the information that is already available.

              [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              This is a much more mature way of viewing the history than what Chipit and others are doing. You are right, we can only look at the sources and attempt to discern truth. None of us were there, but that doesn't mean we should immediately believe the BS the missionaries and priests wrote about them.

              [–][deleted]  (3 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                Humans are humans the world over. These Native Americans were no better and no worse than any. That is to say, they murdered when they wanted and raped when they could. They took slaves because slaves are awesome. And destroyed the environment when they had the capability to do so.

                This is hardly controversial and is mainstream thought. Pick up an environmental textbook sometime.

                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                some tribes murdered and raped whenever they wanted. Quit generalizing.

                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

                No one is arguing that the red race as a whole was morally pure. Everytime this topic comes up, folks like you come out of the woodwork to sell the same talking points that have been sold for generations. You don't seem to grasp the fact that every tribe was different, and some of them were far more life-affirming than any modern countries. It's strange to see such hatred.

                Yes, some tribes were brutal. Yes, all tribes had gone to war at one point or another. This isn't about who is better or who isn't, it's about looking at the history without a modern-lens, without viewing it through the eyes of the victors.

                [–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

                Yet, the way these things are portrayed in modern times is always through such a lopsided lens that always paints a picture of some idyllic paradise lost. Pragmatically speaking, the situation for Native Americans isn't genuinely any better or worse than it was before Euros.

                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

                I see a mixture of it being a paradise (which it wasn't) and it being a barbaric hell-hole (which it wasn't).

                You don't seem to be grasping what Ephemeral and I are saying.

                [–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

                You don't seem to be grasping what Ephemeral and I are saying.

                I think I do. Though, like I said, practically speaking, when you compare the positives and negatives, Native Americans seem to be in about the same quality of life position as before.

                [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                  You'd get mixed results. They are very divided.

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                    I would add though, the main problem with the Native American situation is the loss of their traditional way of life. It's like they're geared toward that, and don't assimilate well in an economic system. Tribal hierarchy seemed to produce a more desirable social system. Instead of money... hunting, fishing, gathering incentivized existence.

                    Now they get paid a stipend every month. Subsidized or free housing, medical, food, and even free college for personal advancement doesn't seem to appeal broadly to them as a reason for existence. So many devolve languishing in substance abuse.

                    I've met successful, smart Indians, and at the same time literally driven through reservations, and seen them stumbling drunk on the side of the road, falling and rolling into ditches for a long nap.

                    It's a sad state of things. They don't want to go back, but they don't want to go forward either. They have lost their sense of purpose, and that is the biggest loss of all.

                    [–]ReeferMadness 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                    No one is "coming out of the woodwork" when they correct your lies. When you say "they were so peaceful before the evil white man came" that is a lie. When you claim that their way of life is better and someone tells you why that's wrong, they are correcting your lie.

                    This isn't about who is better or who isn't,

                    It is LITERALLY a post claiming natives are better than white people.

                    If you don't like the fact that you can't just post blatant lies without people correcting you then go back to reddit where the truth is banned.

                    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                    I like you. You are funny to read.

                    [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                    Actually dark triad types did really well, as women find them irresistible. They became chiefs or died trying.