Trump suspends entry of immigrants who cannot pay for healthcare

submitted by magnora7 from (reuters.com)

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[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Oh I'm not saying nationalized healthcare is perfect, but in the US we literally have millions of people living on the street because they can't afford cancer treatments.

Here's more info about medical errors being the #3 cause of death in the USA: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/476636183/death-certificates-undercount-toll-of-medical-errors

Consider how overworked and under-rested most healthcare professionals are, and what their incentives are, and it's little wonder we get the outcomes we do.

[–][deleted]  (17 children)

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    [–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

    I don't see why another competitor in a supposedly free market can be seen as a bad thing. Especially if that's what the the public wants to do with their tax dollars (rather than bomb the middle east) and it's a proven model that works very well in many developed countries. Plus we already have Medicaid and medicare, it's just an expansion of that

    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

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      [–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

      I have used it an experienced it, for over a year at a time, and I preferred it to the US system every time.

      VA hospitals are bad, I will agree, but that's veteran care, not socialized medicine. So your complaint isn't that the socialized medicine doesn't work, but rather that the US government is too incompetent (or overtaken) to implement it, which I might agree with.

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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        [–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        But tell that to the Canadian who's been waiting 6 months to see a doctor.

        They can still pay and go to a private clinic, can they not? In that sense, how is it any different from the US and the medicaid/medicare system?

        So if you believe the problem is supply and demand, then you probably also think raising wages for doctors and thus having more doctors, is a good idea? So then why wouldn't putting national taxpayer money to hire more doctors solve the problem in your view? What do you think the better solution is?

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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          [–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          He's charged for the shit-tier socialist garbage he can't even fucking use because of the 9 month waiting period, then gouged by the private system.

          That's a reasonable argument, I see what you mean.

          First and foremost routine visits and procedures should be completely outside the insurance system. It starts there, all the ludicrous negotiated insurance rates distort the market. $15,000 for an MRI? Just the referral mania and extraneous testing free-for-all of the current system alone could pay for the cost of my next proposal.

          Agreed, the ridiculous insurance system is the reason why Americans pay so much for healthcare yet get such poor results. These disgusting insurance companies are constantly skimming off the top. They're like "the house" in a casino no one can opt out of.

          We need the military and academia and regulatory agencies to come together, build massive infrastructure, churn out thousands of PAs, nurses, medics, and specialists, and reduce the barriers for them to practice.

          That's honestly not unlike what is already happening though, and it doesn't appear to be solving the problem. I agree that it's an over-regulated industry in a lot of ways, and there are barriers to entry that limit supply in unnecessary ways in certain sub-fields of medicine.

          including a draft. Yes, conscription.

          This is literally a government-funded medical industry again though, just through the filters of academia and the military. This seems like the very system you previously wanted to avoid, it's nationalized medicine is it not? I agree it could possibly work though.

          [–]James_Kuhn3rd 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          A few points (unfortunately lengthy)

          1- When you adjust for things like gun related deaths, obesity, and vehicle accidents, the U.S. healthcare outcomes are quite good. I think Forbes had a pretty decent write up on it in the past. ( I'm not saying things can't be improved upon)

          https://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansfoundation/2018/04/09/u-s-health-outcomes-compared-to-other-countries-are-misleading/

          I'll take my firearms, ice cream, and choice of vehicles over re-making us in the image of the rest of the world. I think the same Forbes article also brings up the homogeneity of certain countries most like to cite, China, Taiwan, the Scandinavian countries, et al. Those countries are typically racist or at minimum largely xenophobic, oft hostile to outsiders, especially the Asian countries. I can go on about this one, But suggesting similar policy as these countries, a la vetting immigrants more closely or giving preference to certain countries leads to the racist/white nationalist label, so that's as far as I'll go.

          2- The VA is a classic model of socialized medicine. The VA does some things very well, general and typical ailments. However, like all socialized medicine, wait times can be long to see a specialist and approvals can be arduous.

          Going outside the system without approval isn't possible in a truly socialized medical system, Alfie Evans (I think was his name in the UK) is a recent and high profile example of this. After his illness diagnosis, the Vatican offered experimental/trial treatments at the request of the parents, willing to try anything. The NHS not only declined him further treatment in the UK system citing it inhumane to continue providing treatment, it also denied his release to another system (Vatican) which offered experimental treatment at no cost to the family or the NHS. The child passed away soon after being denied transfer to the Vatican and life support.

          In the socialized system, you have little recourse if medical malpractice occurs. And, like many good government systems, problems may simply be transferred to a different hospital, or disregarded in total( as is the case with the VA). What's great about our system though, if you don't like Going to the VA, no one can stop you from seeing someone else (other physicians give discounts for cash or perhaps you can look for other insurance, or contact the physician to arrange a pay schedule).

          3 - Ed Dolan did a pretty good podcast with Russ Roberts (econtalk) regarding our healthcare problems. While I disagree with you and everyone else who want Medicare for all/public option, or a more European/socialized system, I found his idea of mandating universal catastrophic coverage intriguing. I could probably get behind that, and I can definitely get behind removing employers from providing insurance on the condition of employment. But it still strikes me as pretty antithetical to the principles that our country was founded on. But I'm probably one of the few left who would prefer freedom, so https://www.econtalk.org/ed-dolan-on-employer-sponsored-health-insurance/

          [–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

          Also if you read the article it says this about the CDC measuring these stats:

          But no one knows the exact toll taken by medical errors. In significant part, that's because the coding system used by CDC to record death certificate data doesn't capture things like communication breakdowns, diagnostic errors and poor judgment that cost lives, the study says.

          So there is no CDC list for this because the CDC deliberately doesn't pay attention to these things. Which in itself is concerning.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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            [–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            No I just literally told you that the CDC does not measure or record medical error as a category of investigation.

            Similar to how the FBI doesn't record killings in the US by police, even though it obviously should. It's protecting the industry it represents, just like the CDC

            [–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            The CDC has been caught botching statistics and lying about surveillance data, espeically when it comes to chronic disease. They are not trustworthy in the least bit. You also have to take i to account that a large portion of the homeless community have various chronic and neurodegenerative infections including babesiosis, bartonelliosis and neuroborreliosis. It is bad enough they can't get treatment, even worse that the diagnostic tests were falsified by the CDC for borreliosos, presently an epidemic in the US, and not easily curable once disseminated. Many homeless people have neuo infectious diseases which cause mental illness.

            The healthcare industry has to get this under wraps or it will blungen our economy as more and more people are denied treatment or cannot pay for treatment so are left impoverished or homeless.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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              [–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              Which is a big problem, and with oligopolies and monopolist control in health care industry it makes price fixing rampant. We need competition, with some regulations, preventing monopolies and bailouts.

              [–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              I have a friend who doesn't have insurance. Got in an accident had to be air lifted. Air lifts are ridiculously expensive even with insurance. I just want to say with the increase in neurodegenerative disorders, probably from infections and other enviromental factors between the ages of 18-35, this could seriously hurt the US economy. I'm seeing more and more sick kids today then I ever have, many of them not being able to pay for treatments or homeless because they have to pay for the treatments.