all 12 comments

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good for Rumble.

[–]ageingrockstar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

When advertisers wanted to cut @dbongino, we cut them. Now we have a resilient advertiser base that loves our creators and audience

Power move (and also morally upstanding)

A publication or a platform can not allow itself to be dictated to by its advertisers. Sure, listen to their concerns, as Chris explained that Rumble did in the last paragraph of the quoted press release but for journalistic integrity, you can not allow yourself to become their whipping boy. Serve your readers or, in the case of a platform, your users and this will generate a loyal readership / userbase that will be very attractive to the right advertisers (who are a good match for that readership).

Advertising (I personally hate to concede) does have its place but it needs to be a servile place. It needs to only be shown to viewers who have potential interest, who are amenable to being shown ads that may be of interest to them, and it should never be trying to manipulate its audience (as so much advertising unfortunately does). These lines must be actively maintained because they will be continually pushed against by the bad eggs.

Something that Elon deserved commendation on, I believe, is that his companies (specifically Tesla) never advertised. (They did marketing, but never bought advertising.) He's toyed with the idea of running a few ads recently but you can see his heart's not really in it. If you build a superior product then it will build its own buzz and you'll get 'organic' advertising, which is people with a genuine interest / enthusiasm for the product talking about it amongst themselves and to interested newcomers. That's what Elon has relied upon, to great success. So I don't know how well equipped he is for dealing with the mainstream advertising world as a revenue stream for his media platform. It's good that he made it that advertisers could be 'community noted'; that was a promising sign (even though I have reservations about the community notes system). The hire of Yaccarino though, was definitely not a good sign. There are other dubious signs too. Ultimately, Twitter was a product of the advertising supported "Web 2.0" which has been so harmful and toxic to free speech on the net and it's a gigantic task to wrest it back into a more healthy space and revenue base and I personally doubt if Elon has the skills and insights to achieve that.

Ultimately, I believe that the client/server model is doomed, as the cost of running servers is crippling and centralises power way too much. So I believe any company that continues to rely on that model, including Rumble, is built on a fundamentally flawed approach. We've got to move to peer to peer decentralised platforms that run on open protocols and I see some very promising new entries in that space (finally), namely Keet & Nostr.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So if I'm understanding what it says at your links, Keet is comparable to Discord and Nostr is comparable to Twitter and Telegram?

There's been several discussions in the past about moving WOTB to a decentralized platform but that's a lot easier said than done. Finding one that members would be willing to migrate to, for starters, with a UI that's similar to Reddit/SaidIt or that at least doesn't have a steep learning curve. Most of us are total noobz when it comes to this stuff.

[–]ageingrockstar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The key difference between Keet & nostr on one side, and Discord, Twitter, Telegram, Reddit & Saidit on the other side is that the first two do not run on servers. All communication (text, video, audio, shared files and even payments) goes directly between the parties involved (2 or more). This is somewhat technically tricky (the technique is called 'holepunching' in that you 'punch' a 'hole' through the net to allow a direct link) but it's very powerful and very liberating. If you're familiar with the bittorrent protocol and torrents, they do this - files are shared directly between 'seeds' and 'leeches', they don't pass through any third party's servers.

Because you're not going through servers, performance is actually much better. To take an example, if you want to communicate with someone in the next room on telegram, your message will have to go through a telegram server possibly on another continent, even when the person is just metres away. With Keet & nostr, your message will only need to follow the shortest path on the internet. With a text message that's not so big a deal. With video and sharing files it is a big deal to have to pass through servers and means there are limits imposed on video resolution and file sizes. And then obviously you have far better security in that you're not going through a third party's server. But finally, the service that you're using is not having to pay for running servers; which means there's no need for the service to compromise itself by finding a 'monetisation solution' to pay for the servers. And because they are open protocols, you're not relying on one party to run the service.

I hope that sheds some more light on these two protocols and their common approach. With regards to moving WOTB, I wouldn't be suggesting that right now. They're both new (from just this year) and still need to be refined somewhat, but they're also undergoing very rapid development so I think 2024 would be the time to look properly at them. Keet (which I follow more closely) is currently undergoing an extensive rewrite to facilitate 'big rooms' that will allow thousands in a shared meeting space; you can appreciate with everyone connecting directly this can be somewhat tricky but I'm confident that they will achieve it. That rewrite has been promised to appear in the next 2 months. The happy thing, for me at least, is that my experience with these two protocols has shown that server-less platforms are possible and work well, and that they are very rapidly getting to a place that will allow popular uptake.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I want to save this comment to our Tech convos collection so I/we can find it more easily in the future. How would you title it to give explorers an idea of what it's about?

I am only slightly familiar with bittorrent, I think I shared a few files that way eons ago. I imagine the tech is light years beyond what it was then.

[–]ageingrockstar 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just updating this conversation to drop a link to this recent article :

https://planb.lugano.ch/can-freedom-truly-be-free/

Which provides a good summary of the current issues with the server based, advertising supported model for social media, and talks about how Keet / Holepunch has implemented a liberating solution (from tech tyranny).

Keet's recently moved into Beta. I've been testing it on mobile and it's shown a lot of progress from the Alpha build (which was already pretty good). For example, I'm in a chat room that has more than 500 members and the discussion is easily shared by keet across all the members' phones (with transmission in encrypted form). No servers involved; no trust in or resources needed from a (corporate) third party. However it's still undergoing constant development and weekly updates, up to a proposed full release in February of next year, so for now best for ppl happy to be beta testers (and ppl keen to get a taste of a liberating technology)

With the issues that Saidit is facing, the value of the 'never on a server' motto has been made more clear. If you're not running on servers then there's nothing for a Distributed Denial of Service attack to attack. (The constant cloudflare prompts show that saidit is under a DDOS attack, which has been kept up for some time now.)

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Bittorrent helps you download large files collectively.

WoW did this and it helped ease server downloads for millions of people.

Warframe, made by Digital Extremes, sends their files via torrents which you really don't have to worry about.

Largest example of BT is Pirate Bay which moved to magnets, but has been in service since the early millennium. It's good tech and you use it to utilize collective download capability over having to set up central servers which only large conglomerates could do before.

[–]ageingrockstar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Cheers. I would go with "Never on a server - peer to peer social media protocols that are uncensorable, permissionless and secure"

(#Neveronaserver is a hashtag that the Keet developers use and is a good statement of distinction I think)

BTW, if you and/or Megan (the OP) would like to try a Keet chat I can set one up. I'm usually highly protective of my anonymity on the net but Keet preserves this so I'd be happy to chat by text or voice (not video) on there to show you its features. I can further explain how it's protective of anonymity if you like for your own peace of mind too, but this is just an offer, I'm certainly not pushing for such a session so if you're wary and don't want to or are not interested that's completely fine.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Excellent, I've added it.

I'll pass on the Keet chat for now but would be very interested in taking the tour once they've done the tweaks you describe. And I'll try hard not to pester you with tech questions now that I know you know something about this stuff.

[–]ageingrockstar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

once they've done the tweaks you describe

Yeah, I was thinking after I wrote that that it's probably better to wait for the Big Rooms update. And what I might do once it's released is post an invite to everyone on here (WOTB on saiddit) to try it out at a scheduled time, maybe on a Friday night or a Saturday.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's a great idea!

ETA: Saturday would probably be better so it wouldn't conflict with the FNDP.

[–]ageingrockstar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Was thinking I could actually do it with the FNDP, and could stream music (play DJ) in a room on Keet, which would demonstrate one capability

Anyway, I'll get back to you / the mod team when the beta release comes out to see whether that might be a goer, cheers