A Question of "Free Speech"

submitted by NetweaselContinuing the struggle from (self.WayOfTheBern)

sorted by:
new (suggested)
topinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (61 children)

I think the moral of the story is: don't shit in someone else's Corn Flakes. That advice is for both the internet crackheads that come here to spew their gibberish about the j00z and us as well.

Being excluded from all is a fine compromise.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think the moral of the story is: don't shit in someone else's Corn Flakes.

Is it possible that there is a second moral of: don't put your Corn Flakes where someone is shitting, then whine about what happens?

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Look, saidit has rules and so do we. We should obey their rules, just as anyone who comes in here to post should obey our rules. There is simply no need for conflict over the matter.

The problem with reddit was not that rules exist, the problem is that reddit's rules are deliberately vague and thus subject to the whims of any power tripping douchebag.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Look, saidit has rules and so do we. We should obey their rules, just as anyone who comes in here to post should obey our rules.

But there is a difference between "rules" and "norms." "How things have always been" is not a rule.

[–]Maniak🥃😾 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

I think the moral of the story is: don't shit in someone else's Corn Flakes.

Or if you do, be a grown ass-person and take responsibility for the consequences, instead of throwing a tantrum and calling on mommy to go to the principal and fire the teacher.

I find it hilarious that this is the reaction of people who consider themselves the polar opposite of shitlibs, while acting exactly like them. Refusal to take any responsibility, refusal to hear anything you don't want to hear, refusal to even be in any kind of vicinity to something you don't want to hear, and instant appeal to authority to get somebody else to reinforce the walls around your echochamber, 'protecting' you from any potential outside influence.

And of course, the entire thing is based on knee-jerk reactions and fee-fees being hurt, rather than in any actual substance. Yelling "FREEDOM OF SPEECH! FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!1!" doesn't make you a freedom of speech warrior when all you care about is for you to be able to shit in everybody else's Corn Flakes without any accountability, and shutting down everybody else's freedom to tell you to sit your ass down.

Then again, that's the plan from their (common) narrative managers after all. Make as many people as possible into ultra-tribalist children who just cannot accept anything other than candy specifically tailored for them.

Fortunately, the turtle doesn't care.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Luigi just stares

launches red shell

glares

😡😡😡

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I find it hilarious that this is the reaction of people who consider themselves the polar opposite of shitlibs, while acting exactly like them. Refusal to take any responsibility, refusal to hear anything you don't want to hear, refusal to even be in any kind of vicinity to something you don't want to hear, and instant appeal to authority to get somebody else to reinforce the walls around your echochamber, 'protecting' you from any potential outside influence.

Absolutely. Of course, as a Communist I understand that Fascism is simply the emergency measures taken when Liberal Democracy fails. When these people say they're against Liberalism they are full of shit, they are simply Liberalism's logical conclusion. They're anti social lumpen scum that are just looking for an excuse to hurt people, and soon the banks will give them that opportunity.

Given how thoroughly the feds have infiltrated reactionary movements in the past, I would not be surprised at all to learn that the race baiters are federal criminal informants.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

I do have another question about the origins of the current dust-up.

(Although certain people seem to dislike my freedom to speak in question form)

The Person In Question -- the one whose Turtling caused this to blow up -- In how many other subs have they been pontificating in the way they have been in this sub, with the same amount of verbiage and number of comments?

And if there have been any, what were the reactions there? Banning? Or allowing the commenting to continue?

It's possible that there are not any other subs that received their blessings of so much verbiage of such a type.
And the implications, if that is true, would be quite interesting.

[–]Maniak🥃😾 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Is it a dust-up? Not quite how I'm seeing it.

I don't have an answer for your question, but I do have another question.

The initial reactions to our popping up in /all were along the lines of "I don't agree with everything they say, but it's good to have new opinions around because this environment was getting stale".

The instant a couple of people got a light slap on the knuckles for being dicks for no reason it became "oh well, let's just nuke the whole thing".

What does it say about a person to go all the way from "new viewpoints are good" to "new viewpoints must be shut down" as soon as they get personally inconvenienced, even slightly?

Are new viewpoints good or are they only allowed to be good if they remain within the confines of the already established orthodoxy?

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I never saw anybody saying WOTB should be shut down. All I saw was calls for speech to be allowed and for moderation to be transparent. WOTB hasn't been shut down. WOTB was removed from /all by decision of the mods of WOTB.

[–]Maniak🥃😾 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I never saw anybody saying WOTB should be shut down.

Neither did I, but then again I can't recall having said that there was. If I did, my mistake.

Here, I said:

What does it say about a person to go all the way from "new viewpoints are good" to "new viewpoints must be shut down" as soon as they get personally inconvenienced, even slightly?

With quotes, in a rhetorical exercise. And that point stands, however intentionally caricatural it may be.

All I saw was calls for speech to be allowed and for moderation to be transparent.

Which is already the case, so what were those calls really about if it wasn't actually this?

The "calls" were for WotB to comply, which shows a complete misunderstanding of just why WotB is WotB, even though it's written right there in the sidebar :)

The "calls" were to shut down a mod, specifically targeted because the moderation is transparent, ironically. All because of a moderating action taken to allow speech while also maintaining a civil level of discourse.

Those weren't calls for free speech. Those were tears from Kevin not wanting to be told to eat his vegetables.

WOTB was removed from /all by decision of the mods of WOTB.

For now, because we're not here to throw shit at the walls of other people and have other things on our plates right now.

We're also not the type to let other people throw shit at our walls without doing anything about it, hence the turtle. A way more polite, civil, transparent and free-speech-friendly approach to moderation than what you'd be getting in the usual shitlib echochambers on Reddit. Which is the entire point.

For the reaction to the most gentle shell we have on hand to be that exaggerated, with repeated made-up claims of censorship and calls for censorship (because logic), shows that those who were complaining don't really give a fuck about free speech. They just want their personal tantrums to go everywhere without resistance, or to be banned so they can then go whine about it and make up their half of the story. Nothing special, we've got a few very similar to those on Reddit as well, they're called shitlibs.

It's not free speech they want; it's an elementary school playground.

Sadly for them, we don't work like that. So shit throwers are free to keep throwing shit around, wearing a badge indicating that they like to throw shit around. They're also free to go throw it elsewhere if they really don't want to eat their vegetables. In both cases, it's all out there in the open. Free and transparent.

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Dragonerne did not know he had to say "I like turtles". Was he ever informed of this? That is lack of transparency. Even if he had been informed, that is still questionable under Saidit rules for moderators.

[–]Maniak🥃😾 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Shelled users get a clear message every time they post something that doesn't follow the shell rule.

And when there's a question about the moderation, what sensible people do is ask the moderation team about it.

What tantrum-throwing toddlers do is stomp and rant while crying for mommy to do something about it.

Lack of transparency, no. Lack of adult behavior, yes. Meaning that the system is working as intended.

As to "questionable under Saidit rules for moderators", I guess you'd have to ask /u/magnora7. And maybe get both sides of the story first.

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for informing me on exactly how the automod rule works. I didn't understand this completely before this. Perhaps the mods of WOTB could add this information to the sidebar of the sub. That way every person on Saidit wouldn't have to constantly message the mods in order to understand this information. That could be enough to satisfy the transparency that Saidit requires.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

...how the automod rule works. I didn't understand this completely before this.

You did, and still do, have the opportunity to actually see it for yourself, on a temporary basis.
That way, you will understand it more completely.

Pretty sure that you have but to ask.

[–]Maniak🥃😾 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Good point. Had a quick chat about it and what I can tell you right this second is that it's not as simple as it sounds.

Something like this was attempted before, in different ways, and ended up having to be removed because it was mostly used by trolls looking for more ways to troll. Granted this was on Reddit, but what this little tempest in a tea cup has shown is that the exact same types are here as well.

Would this work better here or end up the same? Can't say right now, but the discussion isn't necessary closed on it either. Might not be the answer you'd prefer but it's what I've got for now :)

However what you're asking for is kind of already available via the current links in the sidebar, though it does take a bit of navigation and reading.

Check out the "Background reading for newbies" section, the very first under the sub description (which should also be read because its very first paragraph basically explains what happened to Dragonsomething and why it made sense).

Each of the two links brings to another collection of links addressing many of the issues you may be wondering about.

Picking just a couple:

We Get Reports: A PSA For New Visitors

"How Can You Allow 'Those People' To Post At WotB??"

What Is WayOfTheBern?

No, /r/WayOfTheBern is not significantly controlled by right-wing bots (people here should swap 'left' and 'right', but the points stand :)

There's a lot of history behind WotB that led to how things are working now. None of it is random, it all came about through the accumulation of the various experiences of both moderators (past and present), regulars and random users passing by, so it can't really be distilled in a couple of sentences.

We are, however, always open to discussing and answering questions, that's the whole point of the sub... with one requirement:

 

Don't.

Be.

A.

Dick.

 

That's it. That's the rule. Nobody needs to even wonder about the turtle if they can simply manage to remain somewhat civil towards their fellow users.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Dragonerne did not know he had to say "I like turtles".

Let's just jump past the "he did not look at the messages he received" part and go for the main point:
Does he know now?

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

How do you know he received any messages? From his telling of it he didn't know. Whether or not he knows now is irrelevant to the question of lack of transparency that occurred.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

From his telling of it

Have you gotten any of the other side's "telling of it" with an equal amount of belief in it?

Or an equal amount of "lack of belief or disbelief"?

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whether or not he knows now is irrelevant

So, he does know now?

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Did you see the suggestion?

You know, I have no proof whether or not you saw the suggestion, but the suggestion was put out there for you to see.

Somewhat of a similar thing.

You can lead a whore to Walter....

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes he was.

And he also came into my thread flinging the ignorance and lied about it in his thread.

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can you do me a favor and link me to where he was informed please?

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Read his words. The automod had informed him.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Was he ever informed of this?

You know, you are speaking with one of those with access to the Turtle Button (I am not one of those.)

I'm pretty sure that if you asked nicely, they could put you under The Turtle for say 5-10 minutes and then take it off again (since it is not permanent), so you could see for yourself how it works instead of going on second-(or third-)hand information.

Just a suggestion....

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You could also follow your own suggestion. If you have never experienced it on Saidit then you are also using secondhand information.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

you are also using secondhand information.

Not quite... the code was directly lifted from the working code in Reddit.

Also, you have the others who immediately complied. It's not an easy "phrase that pays" to guess, because it's meaningless.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I never saw anybody saying WOTB should be shut down.

I never saw anybody saying The Person In Question should be banned from WotB.

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Numerous people were in fact shadow-banned. A big part of the problem was lack of communication. Apparently saying "I like turtles" on each post removes the shadow-ban, but nobody was informed of this. Even if they had been informed this is still questionable under Saidit rules for moderators.

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You have a point. AFAIK, on reddit, if AutoMod removed a comment for lack of turtle, it would notify the comment's author so they could resubmit with 🐢. That functionality either doesn't exist here or it hasn't been set up.

[–]Maniak🥃😾 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It has been set up, just like on Reddit. So either it doesn't work (which would be something important for us to know, which we currently don't) or the users receiving the automoderator messages aren't mentioning it.

But the automod config here is no different than on Reddit, and we're obviously not trying to hide anything here that we didn't there. If there's an issue with the sending of messages then yeah, it's an issue, but as far as we know everything should be working.

And if there is an issue, it must be a mostly recent development because I'm pretty sure I remember getting those messages when trying out shell rules at some point within the last two years.

[–]AXXA🙏🏿 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you. Both sides in this have good points. Saidit rules for moderators do not allow moderators to act with bias but do allow moderators to limit the topic of their subs. Lack of communication played a huge role here.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Numerous people were in fact shadow-banned.

How can it be a "shadowban" if their words can be seen by all, and they know how to make their words be seen by all?

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is it a dust-up? Not quite how I'm seeing it.

I'm trying to be as neutral as possible in my phrasings.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Then there is the additional question of "why is this environment getting stale?"

We may be getting the answer right now. How often has this sort of thing (not this specifically) happened?
And how much of the "not stale" is getting relegated off to s/NotAll?

[–]Maniak🥃😾 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That one is easy: because it's what always happens with echochambers, be they good or bad.

Side-question: is there such a thing as a good echochamber? After all, WotB is one as well, kind of.

The more interesting point about this is that realizing that it is getting stale is a sign that not everybody is on board with remaining in that echochamber, and that's a good sign.

What could be done for those who realize this to be able to peer outside of the chamber, even as others are trying to close the curtains even harder?

As far as what we can do, being on /all would leave that peering possible, while exposing us to more "dust-ups", which right this second is a bit too much of a bother given that we do have quite a bit on our plate, already having to deal with the (eerily similar) pressure coming from Reddit.

Maybe something to be revisited later on, re-enabling the sub inclusion on /all once we'll be on firmer ground between the platforms. There's a limit to how many plates we can juggle at once.

As far as what they can do, well they already know we're there and can freely keep coming and be more than welcome, as are all the others including the shell-carrying dicks.

So maybe we just leave things as they are and let things develop, or not, organically.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So maybe we just leave things as they are and let things develop, or not, organically.

That's probably the best option for now.

But still, we can talk about it.

That's what we do,

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    WoTB will survive and grow in spite of Saidit. Not because of it.

    As I have been saying for years, WotB(Reddit) was in Reddit, but not of Reddit. We were/are sort of our own ghetto, in the original sense.

    Same here. Just possibly more so.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Very well said.

    It will get quite interesting if/when it gets to the point in which we outnumber them.

    Also, if (has been theorized) we were the ones to have taken the sub off of s/all, we can put it back on again at any moment.
    I do not think that has occurred to "them."

    [–]Maniak🥃😾 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Also, if (has been theorized) we were the ones to have taken the sub off of s/all,

    Not a theory, and...

    we can put it back on again at any moment.

    I do not think that has occurred to "them."

    ...yup, which is another probable source of future hilarity to come, at a time of our choosing, if and when we find the motivation to deal with that :)

    One thing is for sure: after years of not being broken by continuous waves of shitlib brigading, including paid ops, a tiny shit leakage here doesn't even register as an issue, much less any kind of threat.

    Just more catnip to play with while the sub keeps on ticking and the people keep on talking, discussing and opinionating.

    As always, those who are willing to participate in any and all discussions are more than welcome no matter where they're coming from, and those who aren't... have a turtle waiting for them.

    In both cases, we won't mind.

    [–]InumaGaming Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    I watched that and...

    They talked to people with odious ideologies, they lied and misrepresented themselves and others at every opportunity, and people were presented with one side of the story but never sought the full story so came to conclusions that ignored reality.

    Then they watched their own credibility tank as they jumped in the water with no life vest...

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    I watched that

    No, no... before that. Before there was any "butthurt."
    Were (or are) they saying what they were saying here, elsewhere?

    [–]InumaGaming Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    Yes.

    Some of those comments were made before we got an influx.

    Could we be redpilled was the premise.

    Problem was that the 4chan came out of them and they hit the brick wall of The Way.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    Problem was that the 4chan came out of them and they hit the brick wall of The Way.

    The question is: Who else were they 4channing while 4channing us? Or who are they 4channing now?
    Anyone? Or was this specifically directed at "the new kid," us?

    [–]InumaGaming Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    That was their ingrained cultural identity.

    I'm aware of it because I was a 4chan troll in the early millennium where that was far more prevalent.

    New grounds, 4chan, ytmnd... This was some of the sites for crude and infantile discussion. To get into 4chan, with the anonymous culture, you learned to recognize anons through what they said in post to post but reputation isn't a thing.

    For Reddit and Saidit, our posts gain is a reputation and a record.

    The reason to explain that is the fact that 4chan folks sometimes get dinged on their record which is their blind spot.

    Not only is he getting hit with his record, but plenty of people are talking about his bias while the useful idiots who believe him quickly line themselves up for failure themselves.

    All it really took was approaching us and inquiring before trying to attack with The Law like everyone was Judge Dredd and it would have been handled far more diplomatically.

    Instead, people rose their pitch forks coming at The Way and being shown to be duped.

    Emotions can only get you so far.

    Logic has to cool that off and people have to check the character before they go off on adventures.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Not only is he getting hit with his record....

    My record is that I tend to turn things around to look at them in different ways.
    I'm now more curious about his lack of record. I'm getting the impression that "that dog didn't bark."
    At least, not as much as he should have been doing.

    [–]InumaGaming Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Well, his record here was expunged when he came to attack me in the first exchange.

    The hilarity after that is more his Brigade finding the right dupes.

    Also, you can go to 4chan Pol and just see the obsession if you really want to.

    Eventually when there was a digital migration from 4chan, people moved to 8chan, which then had splits to Pol and Leftypol. After a while, I stopped going to the chans entirely but you tend to recognize someone that's been in the anon culture and it was a prominent aspect of themselves.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Being excluded from all is a fine compromise.

    Something that I am curious about, though, is this:
    How many subs have been thrown into the s/Not-All gulag in the name of "free speech"?
    How many people are out there?

    And how can I see s/TheRealAll?
    Even "the list of subs not on s/all, ranked by number of subscribers" would be a start.

    [–]AXXA🙏🏿 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    https://saidit.net/subs/notall/

    WOTB wasn't thrown off /all. That was a decision made by the mods of WOTB.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    How many subs have been thrown [coerced] into the s/Not-All gulag in the name of "free speech"?

    [–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    How many subs have been thrown into the s/Not-All gulag in the name of "free speech"?

    This is a good place to start.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Would be nice if it actually existed.

    But there would be a problem with that -- there would be two types of "NotAll" subs: those that were peer-pressured out of s/all, and those who wish to be private for their own reasons.

    You'd have to have a way to differentiate the two.