top 100 commentsshow all 131

[–]makesyoudownvote 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (113 children)

This is exactly what the right used to say would happen, and they were profoundly made fun of for it.

I was one of the people that made fun of them. Back 15 years ago I fought hard for gay marriage. I still support it.

But the right made a valid criticism that the pro-gay arguments could easily be applied to any sexuality including marrying a toaster or your pet dog. It seemed rediculous, but we should have done a better job at fleshing out the distinction rather than just scoffing. We did flesh it out by the way which is when you started hearing the qualifier: "between two consenting adults". Unfortunately it was done sort of after the fact and is somewhat flimsy in how it's understood. Afterall two is a bit limiting, what about threesomes or polyamory? I definitely see a purpose to forbidding polygamy, but polyamory isn't inherently wrong it's just stupid (I was polyamorous for a while and let me tell you it's dumb).

I don't know though. Some of this thread and interpretation is some of the same low level scoffing. There is plenty to discuss cuss here, like how obviously animals can't consent. But the question remains, what if they could. If we could actually understand animals, and their desires and they genuinely bonded with a human, it still seems wrong, but why? What is it exactly that makes it wrong, without bringing personal faith or beliefs into it? Is it that you can't reproduce or it isn't natural? It's about as natural as homosexuality, both do happen in nature occasionally, both are biologically pointless as procreation is impossible.

I just wish we could have these discussions, not because I am giving credibility to zoophilia or anything, but because I think we should build a stronger shared moral and ideological foundation instead of constantly stacking flimsy ideologies on top of eachother, otherwise eventually (and I think imminently) there will be a moral collapse. We are no longer unified by a common faith, so it's paramount that we establish some sort of shared ethics and ideologies.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

If we could be certain that animals can consent, with proper understanding, then there'd be no legitimate reason to make it criminal. But it would still give you diseases so I don't think it'd be smart. However, that will never happen because very few animals are anthropomorphic. I am but I also don't have sex, so I'm off the table.

[–]perv 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Honestly, what does consent even mean? Especially in this context. Does a dog have "proper understanding" when it mates with another dog? All that matters to me is whether the animal is willing. This is extremely easy to tell when the human is the receptive partner, but I admit it's a little tricky to discern if the animal is the one being penetrated. Even then "not trying to get away" is all the consent male animals typically ask for, so if a sheep lets you fuck it without being restrained or anything, I don't really see a problem.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Animals also eat each other alive. Does that make it right for us to do the same thing?

[–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Animals also eat each other alive. Does that make it right for us to do the same thing?

Animals don't have sex with people.
People shouldn't have sex with animals.

[–]makesyoudownvote 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thanks for the actually thoughtful answer.

Yeah I agree with where you are going with that. I think even the diseases thing would be mitigated if animals could be communicated with and/or they were more monogamous.

But still I personally take issue with the concept based on their cognitive abilities. It's similar to why intoxicated or children can't truly consent. Then again that sort of counters my previous qualifier that they could give consent. This would suppose that in some way this wouldn't be an issue.

I still take issue, but that's emotional not intellectual I think.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Contrary to what the LGBT movement would have you believe, it is absolutely a natural instinct to hate those who have sexual preferences different from your own, just like it's natural to hate anyone who is different in any way. It's up to us to overcome nature when it's wrong.

Therefore, we know that fucking children and animals is wrong, because they're too easy to take advantage of even if they "consent". But there are no grounds for hating gays; we should just advise them not to fuck each other in the ass so they don't get diseases.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

it is absolutely a natural instinct to hate those who have sexual preferences different from your own

I'm not sure this is natural.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why do you think every single society in history has been absurdly racist, sexist, obsessed with bloodlines, anti-gay, super controlling over people's sex lives, and wants to kill people of other religions? Not even a century ago did we start moving beyond that, and thanks to the horseshoe effect we're already slipping back into it. And that's ONLY the west. It's natural.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You said:

it is absolutely a natural instinct to hate those who have sexual preferences different from your own

I said:

I'm not sure this is natural

To prove it's "natural" you said this.

Why do you think every single society in history has been absurdly racist, sexist, obsessed with bloodlines, anti-gay, super controlling over people's sex lives, and wants to kill people of other religions?

So... this is why you think it's "natural" to hate people with others sexual preferences?

The things you referred to are overwhelmingly social. Nothing you mentioned reinforces your argument for what's "natural".

I don't think it's natural to hate.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When EVERY culture does the exact same thing, the basis for the social custom is probably a natural instinct.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

If we could be certain that animals can consent, with proper understanding, then there'd be no legitimate reason to make it criminal.

How about necrophilia?

If dead bodies could consent would you argue to legalize necrophilia?

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

In principle yes, but that's flat out impossible. Even if they're a ghost and tell you to do it, you can't be sure that's not an imposter, and there's still issues since the body is now in possession of their heirs who probably don't want it desecrated.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Honestly, the bigger problem (even though as I responded earlier, there's nothing that should inherently be illegal with the actual act), would be the logical rule patch: If necrophilia is legal, presumably someone who wants to rape someone would just kill the person and then the sex act is legal [though obviously the murder won't be.)

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

But rape is by definition non-consensual. And yes, murder is already a serious crime.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

And yes, murder is already a serious crime.

Abortion used to be illegal.

[–]LyingSpirit472 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I'm pretty sure that actively murdering another person is never going to be legal, no matter what other crimes become legal.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm pretty sure that actively murdering another person is never going to be legal, no matter what other crimes become legal.

The supreme court legalized abortion, based on the rationale that an unborn baby doesn't have 14th amendment legal person rights until it's born.

When it's born it becomes a citizen.

The 14th:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And even in the time when the court was literally claiming slaves were property, they didn't say it was legal for a non-slave to murder a slave, so even that doesn't work.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

What about murdering "Nazis"?

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even that won't be legalized, not even just because to the people claiming it, "Nazi" means "anyone who disagrees with me or even agrees with me, but won't bow down to me and worship me as their god". but because of the "anything you say it's okay for you to do to people who you don't like who are not in power, you say it's okay for them to do to you when they inevitably take power."

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Granted, but I'm just finding the largest flaw with it, even moreso than "the body's in possession of their heirs" [since it goes with the ultimate problem : necrophilia's being illegal is solely done because of 'what will the relatives of the corpse think?', which isn't exactly a good reason.)

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm just saying that creates legal complications.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Of course, but that ties to my point for why I'd say necrophilia being legalized is not a problem. As I said, A corpse's consent is unnecessary because, regardless of your belief in a soul or in life after death, both believers and non-believers' logic comes to the same conclusion that upon death, the corpse becomes an inanimate object. To a believer, a body is a container for the soul, so upon death, the corpse is an empty container (and thus, asking for consent is like asking for consent before you put your dick into an empty Pringles can you turned into a fleshlight), and to a non-believer, there's nothing upon the death of a person, so upon death, the corpse is a mere object (and thus, asking for consent from a corpse is like asking for consent from your dildo.) As such, asking for a corpse's consent is completely unnecessary as it's fundamentally no different than fucking a sex toy, and so necrophilia becomes "it's creepy, but shouldn't exactly be illegal."

With that in mind, this is the legal complication mentioned: The living body can choose not to consent, but the corpse itself is just an object and thus its consent isn't particularly necessary.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

People are irrationally attached to their bodies. Ghosts are always desperate to revive it apparently, which seems extremely foolish to me, but that's how people think. And legally, the body belongs to that person's heirs, who also would not consent to having it desecrated like that.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

In principle yes, but that's flat out impossible

Most people would have thought allowing children to take hormones and mutilate they're bodies would have been impossible.

there's still issues since the body is now in possession of their heirs who probably don't want it desecrated.

Parents are resisting the desecration of their children... and the child desecration is accelerating.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People taking hormones aren't dead.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Children taking hormones is unethical.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But it's not relevant to the subject of necrophilia.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

In defense there, it's a bad argument because if we go through this conclusion, necrophilia is even MORE logical to agree to legalize than zoophilia would be.

Even if we ignore the possibility of the living person consenting to the person using their body after death (in which case, there is consent), There's two possibilities with people's belief system about death: Either You are a believer in souls and the afterlife, or you are not a believer of souls and the afterlife.

If you believe in souls and the afterlife, then once the person is dead, their soul is on its journey through the afterlife. The body is an empty container that no longer holds a soul and has fulfilled its purpose. Putting your dick in a corpse is thus no different than putting it in an empty jar. It's creepy as fuck, but there's nothing intrinsically WRONG with it.

If you DO NOT believe in souls or the afterlife, again, it's a dead body. It's no longer a person. It's an object. Asking for consent from the corpse is no different than asking a dildo or fleshlight for consent. It's creepy as fuck, but there's nothing intrinsically WRONG with it.

Either way, it goes to "it's creepy as fuck, and I'm going over there now, but there's no inherent reason it should be illegal either."

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

It should be illegal, because of the psychotic murders out there, who would get their first taste of what they crave by the legitimization of seed with corpses.

It was gay rights.
Then LGBT. Then LGBTx.
Then LGBTxx.
Then LGBTxxx.
Then LGBTxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Then necrophilia.
Then necrophiliax.
Then necrophiliaxx.

Where the hell will it end? Necrophiliaxxxx&freshly-murdered-children?

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But that has nothing to say about the specific act. Murder, of course, is incredibly illegal no matter what. Murder is basically the ultimate in illegal things, so "anything else could lead to murder" is not inherently a reason to make anything else illegal because it's covered by murder.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Murder, of course, is incredibly illegal no matter what.

Necrophilia is illegal in every significant society on the earth.

The idea that we should entertain necrophilia as plausibly legitimately suggests a severe deficit of morality.

It's not an issue of whether the deceased is opposed.

The real question is, do we want to live in a society where sex with corpses it's considered acceptable?

Would a person's ancestors be proud of the supporters of such a behavior? There's wisdom in the previous generations values.

We are eternally in their debt for every positive freedom that we enjoy.

We have a duty to protect what we've been entrusted with.

It is our duty to preserve it for the future generations.

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But if that's the point, then it somehow becomes "this is illegal because someone else may look down on it", which is not a good thing.

Even then "would a person's ancestors be proud of this" is not a good enough excuse. If it's considered the same as other romance things doesn't work for the controversial sex practices- this goes past even "would they be proud of you if you slept with someone of the same sex" stuff and goes towards "your ancestors would spit on you if you chose to marry a person of the opposite sex for love instead of letting your parents choose your marriage partner to give the family some benefit to the house in some way".

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"your ancestors would spit on you if you chose to marry a person of the opposite sex for love instead of letting your parents choose your marriage partner to give the family some benefit to the house in some way".

This was the aristocratic view in Europe.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The current view is no less wrong. I don't think marriage in general is worth it.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And even the non-aristocrats would do the same thing. Maybe your benefit is marrying someone of higher standing to move your house up in society, maybe your benefit is "we have a little land, they have a little land next door, if you two marry the merged family has both pieces of land", maybe it's down to "you're a big strong man. She's a big strong woman. By order of the lord of this area, you two will marry and have big strong babies to be the next generation to till the fields", but "marry for benefit happened with everyone except people who had such a low station that literally no one could possibly care if either of you were bumping uglies with the other person.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This isn't morality. You're thinking in a carnal manner, where things are right or wrong simply because "nature" and "tradition" say so.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This isn't morality. You're thinking in a carnal manner, where things are right or wrong simply because "nature" and "tradition" say so.

What is your definition of morality?

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The golden rule. Y'all need more Jesus.

[–]TaseAFeminist4Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You are assuming consent is the end-all / be-all of determining whether a sex act is morally acceptable. What basis do you have for that?

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What basis do we have for saying murder is criminal? If it directly hurts someone or someone else's property, intentionally or at least neglectlessly, then it's criminal. That's how rights work, your rights are unlimited except that they don't override mine, and vice versa.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What is it exactly that makes it wrong, without bringing personal faith or beliefs into it?

So like I think that mindset itself is kind of wrong. The problem is you are looking for some kind of objective moral base and I don't think one exists. Ultimately personal faith or beliefs will come into play. And when you go off of that it's usually some psychopath trying to justify their actions which makes people very wary of even having the discussion.

Like we can point out the obvious problems with zoophilia, it's animal abuse, and spreads disease. But that only works if both of us share the personal beliefs that abusing animals is bad, and disease is bad. Which I should hope we share, but for the purpose of discussion I'll become the devil's advocate here.

Can you find an objective moral base by which you can say animal abuse is wrong? What if I hold a personal belief that animal abuse is great. I love kicking puppies in the face! And I also think disease is wonderful, I try to spread it everywhere.

And I'll objectively defend both of these beliefs through Darwinian evolutionary pressures. Weak puppies need to be kicked into the face to cull the puppy population and produce stronger puppies that won't suffer, same with disease it culls the weak and makes the human race stronger.

I think this comes down to the main problem of what happens when you start messing with the ethics of society and changing social definitions. No holds barred really hard to self arrest from it. Why despite agreeing that euthanasia can be morally acceptable in extreme circumstances, I'm more or less totally opposed to the application or it in practice, because that idea that it's ok for doctors to kill people can easily spread to less extreme circumstances. We've seen it happen on a large scale before and it can lead to literal genocide. Like not silly internet hyperbolic nonsense. But actual 20th century Nazi concentration camps where they were going through and culling all the weak and disabled and otherwise undesirable elements of their societies along with the Jews and Gypsies.

How it relates to marriage laws, I think the general liberalization of sexual immorality laws is a good thing. No reason to arrest gay people for doing it who aren't otherwise causing problems. No reason to ban cohabitation of gay people. And I'm pretty much fine with them getting the same kind of benefits that married couples can get. Adoption is a bit tricker but I don't think gay couples are automatically going to be bad for the kids, but that needs to be evaluated carefully on a case by case basis to avoid problems like that one US case recently where the gay couple was essentially pimping out their adopted kid.

The issue comes from the redefinition of the social institution of marriage I think. You have to be quite careful with that sort of thing. The generalized attitudes of "love is love" don't really work because well, as you say if I want to marry 5 women and my horse as well, why not? It's true love!!! If you don't say so aren't you a bigot?

[–]makesyoudownvote 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you are seriously misunderstanding. I am not looking for an OBJECTIVE moral base. I'm looking for a collaborative ethical consensus. There is a big difference, but I agree if I was looking for the former it would be impossible without something like religion to set the base for me.

That said, I would even go as far as to say the second isn't quite achievable either. It's like utopia, it's something to strive for, not something that can ever be fully achieved. We can hammer out the big tent poles easily . Theft, murder, adultery, pretty much all people agree these are wrong. I just want to keep working on it more collaboratively and broadly than we have been doing recently. I want to bring back enlightenment era conversations. This country is founded on conventional liberalism and unlike most today, I don't want to give up on that. Some ideas like true free market capitalism are obviously flawed, but beyond that I still think maximizing individual freedoms whenever possible is an objective to strive for.

I absolutely LOVE the rest of your comment though. That's some excellent reasoning there. This part especially:

The generalized attitudes of "love is love" don't really work because well, as you say if I want to marry 5 women and my horse as well, why not? It's true love!!! If you don't say so aren't you a bigot?

I couldn't agree more.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Marriage wasn't about love until very recently. It was mostly financial, and sometimes involved social status. Paul saw it not as love but as an outlet for sexual urges. Love used to be for anyone, not just a mate.

[–]iamonlyoneman 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (56 children)

we can't have these discussions because people who are against God won't hear of it. You can't just tell someone the author of morality is against something the fag thinks is at the core of his person. There's no debate. Either you are on God's side and agree with him or you don't, and if you don't then you don't care what he or his people say.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Where's your proof that God takes this stance? Because I have thoroughly discredited every single argument so far. In fact most of the "proof" is blatantly fabricated.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You cannot discredit the Bible. That's the sticky wicket in the whole thing.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

What are your arguments? I don't even need to discredit inerrancy of the Bible to debunk every single proof text that God hates fags. Because not one of them is on solid ground, even though they've been made to look rather clear over time. And the Bible itself warns against notions that it is inerrant; and if the Bible is inerrant then the Bible must be right when it says it's not inerrant.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

God loves fags, trannies, even degenerate furries. God loves everybody. God hates when people do things that are evil, which buggery clearly is. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" as they say.

The verse you linked, it does not say what you think it says. Context is critical, as usual.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The context is God just denied ever giving any commandments about the pagan practice of sacrificing animals to him. Something the books of Moses are OBSSESSED with.

In any case, you still have zero evidence that God is anti-gay or whatever besides your own authority.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Are you going to cite anything or just sit here and troll me?

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Comrade, you have at your fingertips the majority of the knowledge of mankind. If you honestly are curious, you won't look at sites that dunk on the bible's alleged contradictions, you will study the bible itself. Grab a King James translation and have your dictionary handy for the couple-dozen words that are tricky for modern people. It's written at an eighth grade reading level, it's not hard. Start in John and read through the revelation, then start over in Matthew and go through the revelation again, and then start from Genesis.

You have twice in this single comment thread failed to catch context even though you have linked a site that could possibly help you with it. It seems unlikely that I could break through the shell of someone actively defending against understanding.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

God hates when people do things that are evil, which buggery clearly is. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" as they say.

[–]makesyoudownvote 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

Which God?

Surely you see how this argument is the exact same argument the left always uses about "human rights". If you boil everything down to vague terms like good and evil, you never actually get anywhere.

Now to your side's credit the Bible even if not the word of God contains over 3 millennia of morality, ethics and lessons that are for the most part explicit and don't contradict, but keep in mind the Bible more explicitly forbids things like clothing of mixed fibers and eating pork than it does things like homosexuality. The stance on homosexuality is far more manufactured by individual preists while what is taken as the literal word of God is often ignored. I'm not trying to discredit it, because I respect and honor Christianity pretty much any other religion for it's moral stances. It's got the wisdom of the Torah, but with a much more pacifist turn the other cheek sort of stance. I do believe Jesus to be the son of God, but even if you don't, the guy was undoubtedly morally a genius.

But again this misses part of the point. This country is hinged on freedom of religion and tolerance (much like Jesus himself as I read him), but this includes trying to make peace with other religions and trying to come together to a common set of ethics. You can, and should use religious texts like the Bible, but you also must allow for other religions to be given some weight too. I don't want to live under the more extreme Jewish or Islamic laws, nor do I want to live like a Mormon, so obviously some degree of the ethics are exclusive to practitioners, yet some like murder are universal. The goal is to try to nail down universal ethics that can make us all live and work together.

Then when you die you will be held to God's law.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

There is but one God, comrade! And his word must be interpreted in light of itself. The things about clothing and shellfish are no longer applicable but still a good idea. The part about buggery being absolutely sinful still is, and they who enjoy such things reject it, preferring to feel good for a short time on this side of death.

If Jesus was not God then he was insane, as he routinely allowed others to call him God and held himself out to be God, and allowed himself to be tortured to death as a sacrifice. Also if he was not God then he would not have been able to bring people back from the dead, even four days dead (!) as well as healing many other non-lethal ailments.

The USA was set up to be a nation with a relatively similar set of morals. You can't have the kind of diversity the left and other religions are pushing and keep the USA, it can't work.

[–]LyingSpirit472 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

The things about clothing and shellfish are no longer applicable but still a good idea.

But if you admit that they're no longer applicable, then you are saying the Bible is flawed, and thus in God's eyes you're literally as evil as the gay person or zoophile. Hope that cotton-poly shirt or that shrimp cocktail was worth your immortal soul.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

No? There are different rules for different people in different times, but some of the rules from one dispensation are the same in another. It's only as complicated as you want to make it to prevent yourself from understanding, really

[–]LyingSpirit472 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Those are some big words for "you're a Satanist who goes against the Bible". Get behind me, Satan!

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

k

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

ok devil worshipper.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

But how do you determine which rules apply to whom?

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

By diligent and prayerful study of the Bible itself, occasionally informed by commentary from non-heretical analysts

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

More like 100% informed by commentary from heretical analysts. Because there's literally zero reason why pork is no longer an abomination but being gay still is, other than because all the popular figures say so.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

are you sure a sheet descending from heaven filled with all manner of unclean beasts has nothing to do with it?

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the sins of homosexuals and trans shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever lusteth after the opposite sex, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever lusteth after the same sex, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The things about clothing and shellfish are no longer applicable but still a good idea. The part about buggery being absolutely sinful still is, and they who enjoy such things reject it, preferring to feel good for a short time on this side of death.

By what authority? There's nothing in the Bible detailing which laws were "fulfilled" by the New Testament and which ones still apply. The litmus test is the golden rule, everything else is either misunderstood or corrupt, and God doesn't change.

And again, all the supposed condemnations of gays in the Bible are fraudulent. If you go back to the original languages it doesn't say that, except in one section which seems to be a quotation of some Judaizers the author is condemning.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The litmus test is God says so, and the corollary is the people he trained say so too. Read the writings of the people he trained, including his words. You don't need a checklist, you need to study, and not to listen to people who are in themselves corrupters. Textual criticizers are VERY often unbelievers who will be unable to honestly connect these dots too.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm not "listening to textual criticizers," the evidence checks out. The litmus test is found in all four gospel accounts as well as Paul, so I'm quite sure it's reliable. And it's quite a coincidence that whatever contradicts it always seems to be a later scribal invention.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're not listening to them, the same way your nation has no culture. You are so steeped in heresy you don't even recognize it.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"My nation has no culture." How is this at all relevant?

Don't forget who the biggest heretics were to first-century Judaism, and continued to be so for centuries.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

and don't contradict, but keep in mind the Bible more explicitly forbids things like clothing of mixed fibers and eating pork than it does things like homosexuality.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[–]LyingSpirit472 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

There's one big problem with that: That line was in Leviticus, an Old Testament book.

The New Testament not only said that "all the rules in the Old Testament can be thrown out in Christianity", but the very core tenet of Christianity is "Jesus's death wiped away all sins from mankind, forever." It's blatant, etched in stone, Hitler could recant on his deathbed once, even if he didn't totally mean it, and be welcomed into heaven, level of "no sin can be left unforgiven."

To say "and yet being LGBT+ is the one sin that is truly unforgivable in every way, shape, or form, being gay is a one-way, go directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, Putin will be welcomed into heaven while a boy who once got molested by their priest will burn in hell for having once had sex with a man" is to say there's a sin in the world which Jesus's death on the cross did not pay for, which in the process destroys all of Christianity far more than the culture war does.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's not even actually in Leviticus, the translators "adjusted" it.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, IIRC the original quote was saying "don't commit pederasty", which is something most people would be aware is a sin that is out of the picture.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Not quite. It says "don't lie a woman's lyings," which at most forbids anal sex. Or it's telling men not to have sex with men who are married to a woman (compare the usage of "uncovering nakedness").

[–]LyingSpirit472 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ah. The original translations I had heard of this verse said that they translated one of the instance of "man" in the text where it was supposed to be "boy" in that instance (and thus the line was forbidding men having sex with young boys- which in Greco-Roman times was common enough they would likely need a rule saying "dude! NO!")

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not. The actual text reads, "If a man lies a woman's lyings with a male..." At most this forbids anal sex, more likely it's prohibiting married men from committing adultery with a man (because the lyings belong to the wife, compare the usage of "uncovering nakedness"). Translators don't want this to be known, they're extremely biased and want people to think there's no doubt about a translation they pretty much invented. If you don't believe me you can look at the Hebrew yourself, as well as the old Greek translation used in New Testament times.

[–]makesyoudownvote 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Exactly thanks for bringing that up. See how loose that is, compared to:

Leviticus 19:19

“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.

Deuteronomy 22:11

"You shall not wear cloth of wool and linen mixed together."

Your's says "lie with" and doesn't contain a commandment by God, but rather states a judgement; "an abomination", then says they will surely be put to death. It could easily be interpreted as describing contemporary feelings about homosexuality. There is a huge amount that is up for interpretation there in that one line that contains no commandment from God just a judgment. It's the church that has chosen to largely interpret that the same way, but as it's written there is a ton of wiggle room there.

Not really so with the mixed fiber thing, yet I can more or less guarantee you wear clothing of mixed fibers huh? I know I do. My favorite socks actually are wool and nylon blend and they feel amazing. I'd venture to say in God's eyes this is worse than Gay sex. In no way does it say I'd go to hell for gay sex, it just says it's an abomination and if I have gay sex, and get killed it's my own damned fault.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It doesn't literally mean that. Almost every law used by the New Testament is in a figurative manner. People have lost sight of what the Jewish scriptures are supposed to be. I suppose this could be a product of our modern academic-oriented society where plain facts are the norm, unlike in ancient times when most things were communicted through poetry and imagery.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

thinks is at the core of his person.

This detail has become the primary factor in a number of people's lives.

The media supports and reinforces it.

It has been manipulated into a matter of personal identity, and the slogan is "pride"

The dividers and conquers of the world are skilled at exploiting minority groups.

They leverage "pride" for their useful idiots, and attack moderate opinions by labeling them "____ phobes" or "___ deniers".

These dividers and conquers don't like people to talk about them.

[–]ExplodingToasterOven 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ultimately, zoophilia, as in they preferentially bond and have sex with animals, rather than it just being any kind of "stray tail" they can land, be it human, animal, silicone fleshed out robots, whatever, are actual MORE rare and serial killers. There are something like 30 to 1 MORE serial and spree killers than zoophiles by population.

So ultimately, the psychology of zoophilia is studying a hyper minority. From what little they found from the oh, 500-2000 ish in the english speaking world, there seems to be a more generalized bond with mammals in the mid-brain, more openness to attractive pheromone triggers, and not as much with their own species.

Now the mentally ill, who just tend to fuck random things, called it generalized paraphilia. Or people into risky/exotic sex, those are way way more plentiful. This is usually neurotransmitter dis-regulation. .5mg of risperdal a day, and magically it stops being an impulse, because the brain is no longer trying to fry itself. The thrill seekers, that's a bit more complicated. They're probably going to kill themselves from auto-erotic asphyxiation in the end, so, who cares? :D

You get into rural areas which are sexually repressed, like during the Kinsey study on male sexuality in the 40s-50s, and its all fucking bets are off. Similar with the Arab world, and many other regions. Its a transitional phase, so people can get their rocks off without knocking up someone in their teens and being a social pariah. When they get older, and more financially stable, most end up boringly vanilla heterosexuals.

As for studies of actual zoophiles, the Indiana study was kind of a wet firecracker. They got a bunch of code geeks/aerospace guys with IQs over 130, who had xNTx type Meyers-Briggs personalities, etc etc.. You lock them up, kiss the fucking internet goodbye. :D Most of the new laws on zoophilia were aimed at the more reckless people making porn of it, and fence jumping. In the rural states, the laws protecting factory farmers who torture chickens, turkeys, assorted livestock, generally keeps the wealthier zoophiles who own their own farms, etc from being blackmailed by their mexican or otherwise ranch hands. Violate ag gag, rack up a felony, back to Mexico boyo! ;D

People just into the porn of animal sex, or human-animal sex.. Mostly novelty seeking personalities. If that porn goes away, they hit the internet and find a new fetish in about 5 minutes.

So most of this zoophilia panic is just bullshit. Granted, that doesn't keep certain senile as FUCK former sheriffs in Arizona from blowing $3-4 MILLION a year trying to lure them to Arizona and bust them. For reasons. :D Or any other wacky assed shit for someone trying to make hay persecuting a super minority and making a name for themselves. Which might get them a step up in their career, but is ultimately limiting because you don't want someone into spectacles and ridiculous bullshit at the higher levels of the justice system on investigative issues.

[–]LtGreenCo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Zoo Pride Week

Really is this where we've progressed as a society that fucking animals needs its own pride week...

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. Mercilessly bully and mock anyone who takes pride in what they do with their dicks, especially if it involves animals.

[–]QueenBread 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I can now understand all the myths about Sodom and Gomorra, and the fall of Rome.

[–]TaseAFeminist4Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

This person needs to think less and feel more.

ETA but he's right about the equivalency there.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It's simple.

Fucking animals is bad.

Why?

Animals can't consent.

Also it spreads disease.

I'm ancient times people realized bad things happened to them when they had people who fucked animals in their communities, attributed those bad things to divine wrath, and killed the people who did it in hopes god would spare them.

We now know they will catch monkey pox and shit. Which is still enough reason to ban such behavior. Besides the animal cruelty charge.

[–]hfxB0oyADon't piss on my head & tell me it's raining. 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

Animals can't consent.

True. Although horses can clearly reject one's advances by saying "nay".

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It's still problematic though. Humans are way more intelligent than any animal, so it's just like adults taking advantage of naive minors.

[–]QueenBread 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

EXACTLY. This is why I think people who hurt animals need harsher sentences. Between an animal and a child, the step is not so big. In fact, I think it's also why so many people love animals - they're dumb and helpless like babies. (And yes, I'm talking even about tigers or bears, even if they can be dangerous if they catch you alone and unprepared obviously.)

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey, I'm helpless, but I'm not dumb!

[–]hfxB0oyADon't piss on my head & tell me it's raining. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If course it is. I was joking.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

That is no defense for your crimes. You shall be PUNished.

[–]ExplodingToasterOven 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But ultimately, they're just animals, and humans are an apex predator. So if its a question of does the animal get fucked, or does it get fattened up, killed and eaten?

I'd suppose the fucking it would be a lesser of evils, but I'm a bit heartless on these things.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Death is painless if done right. I definitely think that's the lesser of the two evils. Though I can see your point.

[–]jet199[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Because men are all dogs, obvs.

[–]xoenix 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Someone needs to alert PETA.

[–]ExplodingToasterOven 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

lol! PETA has always been one shitshow away from being labeled a domestic terrorist organization, and locked up for good.

[–]filbs111 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I probably wouldn't really like this person if I met them, but really I'd rather the state get out of people's business where possible. If you can eat a pig, why can't you pork it?