"Five Geek Social Fallacies" An interesting look at social relations amongst human outcasts. I think perhaps a driving force behind the Tumblr effect.

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[–]Alienhunter糞大名[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fallacy #1 ostracizers are evil.

Fallacy #2 friends accept me as I am

Fallacy #3 friendship before all

Fallacy #4 friendship is transitive

Fallacy #5 friends do everything together

I think especially the first two tend to be driving aot of tumblrism. I used to notice a lot of similar behaviors when I hung around with social outcasts and saw a lot of the Tumblr stuff and activism begin to ferment in those groups. Think a lot of it comes from people being perhaps a bit too tolerant of certain behaviors that have a net negative social effect.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

And this is how the gay community and the bisexual community became the LGBTQ+ community. Gay and bi people, after centuries of being demonised by society, allowed troons, enbies, fetishists and LARPers come in and take over spaces that were intended for gay and bi people.

Not all exclusion is bad.

[–]Datachost 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Not all exclusion is bad.

Sometimes it's necessary to exclude to include. Take women's sports for example, a category that exists to keep out male advantage. If you start letting in people with those advantages it's going to discourage women from competing. In this case excluding a few edge cases leads to a greater overall inclusion. And including all will lead to self imposed exclusion.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Another example is gay bars. The purpose of gay bars is so that homosexuals can meet each other, in a place where you can assume that the person you like is also gay or bi. Sure, most straight men don’t have an issue with gay men, and some of them would even be flattered (I presume). But it is awkward, and after so many times it gets tiring. But when most of the people at a gay bar are straight, then it defeats the purpose of a gay bar. This is why a lot of gay bars are sex-segregated: straight women don’t want to go to lesbian bars where lesbians or bi women hit on them, and straight men don’t want to go to gay male bars where gay or bi men hit on them. Straight men usually don’t bother go to lesbian bars, but it is trendy for straight women to go to gay male bars so straight men end up going to these bars. And now that transgenderism is universally accepted, straight women pretend to be men to go to gay male bars and straight men pretend to be women to go to lesbian bars.

To be fair, most straight people who go to gay bars know that they are just guests. They go with a friend who is gay or bi and stick with that friend, and they make it clear that they are only there to support their friend. But some straight people go to gay bars because for them it’s like going to the zoo.

I know that most pubs and nightclubs are open to the wider public, regardless of sexual orientation. But if a bar exclusively for heterosexuals was opened up, I wouldn’t object. And if I was invited, I would decline. Unless a friend needed me to accompany him or her, in which case I would stay at my booth so that I don’t draw attention from straight or bi women and end up leading them on.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I was pretty confused the last time I was in the UK and the gay bar was the happening place for straight people to go. Bet that's frustrating as fuck for the gays who want to hook up. But I suppose they have their own "super gay bars" that they understand are for that. At least until they get discovered and "colonized" by the straight women.

I think the problem basically is you can't reasonably discriminate homosexuals and heterosexuals if you opened a "straight bar" or even in the case of a gay bar. It's not like you have to be licensed to be gay, although knowing the state of the UK bureucracy maybe that's actually a thing over there.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I don't think it's legal in the UK for gay male bars to deny entry to women. The only male only spaces that are allowed over there are toilets and changing rooms.

[–]ClassroomPast6178 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, can’t see the local council licensing a male only bar serving alcohol, but they will license male-only saunas/bathhouses in England and Wales, and women on site can cause the loss of the licence.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Saunas and bathhouse will have to do. But still, stupid laws.

[–]ClassroomPast6178 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, but it’s a result of the equality act 2010, which prevents discrimination on the basis of sex with just a few exceptions. Largely a good thing, but should have been restricted to employment and public services and left private businesses and clubs to make their own rules (like they did for religions in the equal marriage legislation).

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. I agree. The equality act should be amended to exempt private businesses and clubs. Ironically, LGBT groups would oppose that, even though this will obviously benefit gay bars.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think in terms of the concept of a pub sometimes discrimination is what you want. Rarely does it make sense to discriminate on the basis of sex, it's really only a gay bar where that would be of any use.

Generally speaking it's in the club owners best interests to serve everyone who isn't disrupting their business so discrimination laws aren't really needed. Though I think they were necessary for a time in certain areas, like the American deep south following Jim crow. That said the very idea that you can legislate away racism is stupid anyway. If black people aren't welcome at some white bar, making it illegal to deny them service won't fix the problem of them not being welcome, they'll just get vaguely shit service and a cold welcome.

[–]OuroborosTheory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

and things were never chummy-chummy in the OG LG community (you never hear someone surprised by cattiness and drama among the gays)--there was always an insistence on distance; bar subculture before the 70s was strictly reputation-based--some accept mixed groups, others you'll get The Stare if a bunch of surfer-dude types show up

the closest analogy to today from the 70s was the fad insisting that "everyone's either bi--or in denial!" leading to man/woman couples getting The Stare while trying to find a table in the local gay watering hole

but back then they didn't have the social media Narcissism Machine

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To be honest, I don't like gay culture at all, if I can even call it gay culture. Besides cattyness being an utter turnoff, it's just pleasant to be around. I also don't like the expectation that gay men have to act a certain way, or else they're "not really gay"? It's as if being gay is supposed to be a personality for a lot of people.

[–]ClassroomPast6178 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And sometimes exclusion is just freedom of association. Part of the trouble is that we allowed exclusive spaces, particularly sex-exclusive spaces, to be demonised, and this is the result.

I’ve a feeling that sex-segregated spaces in the past were widespread (pubs having men-only saloons, working men’s clubs, The WI etc) for good reasons that weren’t simply about oppressing women. It’s not just about physical safety, although that is a primary concern in the Troon debate.

[–]wylanderuk 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And frankly the push from feminists to try either close down or gain entry to guys spaces for fucking decades leaves my "give a flying fuck" meter reading at a minus except for changing rooms and most days toilets.

[–]SerpensInferna 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Why are women a monolith? Many women never wanted to go into men's spaces, and frankly, the threat of sexual assault of women -> men is extremely minor compared to that which troons present.

[–]wylanderuk 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know what?

Learn to fucking read or learn to comprehend what you sound out...

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sometimes people have sex-segregated spaces just because it natural to want to socialise with your own sex. Men like hanging out with other men, women like hanging out with other women. And there’s nothing wrong with that. There will still be places where both sexes can hangout.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you look at the "trans murder rate" you'll see that a lot of the murders are basically related to prostitution. You'll get accused of victim blaming if you bring this up. But I'll take that accusation I suppose if you accept that demonizing alcoholics for drunk driving is also "victim blaming"

Some behavior is stupid and risky and will get you killed. It's not victim blaming to point that out and encourage people to avoid such behavior. It's actually far worse to see someone doing something dangerous and saying nothing because you don't give a fuck about them.

Saw some news story fairly recently where a trans woman was saying how "her" friend was shot and murdered, which is sad, but "she" was shot and murdered while sucking some local gang banger drug dealer behind a dumpster who didn't appreciate the "surprise". Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, is still a murder but it's an entirely avoidable one. Don't be a prostitute. Don't risk a higher murder rate.

[–]wylanderuk 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Not all exclusion is bad.

Yeah try telling that to a rad fem that decides they want entry...

[–]Alienhunter糞大名[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Rad fems are hilarious. They don't understand that the reason they are unwelcome isn't so much that they are a woman, but that they are raging psycho cunts that scream at everyone else as helping the patriarchy if they don't get their way.

They're gonna scream and piss themselves over not being let into a bar and then when they get in they are gonna scream and piss themselves about "male gaze" or "not being a welcoming space" or some shit like that.

Frankly I say just give them soap box and let them get heckled, free entertainment. You lose the game they are playing when you decide to play.

For me I usually just laugh at them, say that's fucking stupid and refuse to elaborate further. Because after all why waste you breath trying to explain something to an idiot? That makes you an idiot as well, and then you'll lose to the more experienced idiot.

[–]OuroborosTheory 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/utopia-what-would-a-womens-society-look-like/

[–]wylanderuk 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh is her blog back up? What a fucking nutter she is/was.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I thought it was pretty funny. It reads like a really bad episode of star trek.

It's also woefully naive and hilariously contradictory.

"Men will be illegal! Also laws will be illegal!"

[–]wylanderuk 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah she is fucking insane and also used to be pretty common post on the original TIA.

[–]OuroborosTheory 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

nah, that's still from 2014--but I find it interesting to see how Tumblr flipped so hard from "the only good penismonster is a dead one" to diving headfirst into the radfems' barmiest imaginings insisting that "that serial rapist demanding to get access to the women's wing IS a woman, SHE's Janice now and grew out her hair!!!"

(I mean it's actually skull-crackingly boring, but in a HISTORICAL sense there's something intriguing to pick over)

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Yes. They hate men-only spaces. They don't even like gay men hosting men-only spaces.

[–]OuroborosTheory 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

back in 2012-14 they really were on top of the world: mixed shelters were closed, they couldn't technically be charged for rape, campus men's centers with 1% the funding were refused unless they were supervised by them to make sure the men seeking help heard only that all their problems were their own fault

and then the Yanivs of the world came riding over the horizon on their mobility scooters ...

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That is horrible. Maybe the trans thing backfiring on them is karma. Unfortunately, there are a lot of innocent women who did nothing wrong who are paying the price for what feminists have done. And innocent children are in danger.

[–]OuroborosTheory 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

a little recent-historygeeking, radfems had basically ruled the roost for decades, and were responsible for what made Tumblr so Tumblr--but they were only the first

the dystopian "progressive stack" emerged during OWS 2011, which allowed for a battle royale to break out until they found a left-handed deaf-mute non-normative audiovisually radical Jewish Wiccan transwoman trans woman wheelchair-bound in a wheelchair

everything they hate about the TERFs is they constantly have to see in themselves--the dismissal of real politics for tiddly issues, the constant hall-monitoring and competition and purges of allies, the Cluster B drama-queening and the meltdowns and the undisguised inceldom and the Tsoukalos-level claims about every past society and the mobbing and the half-understood sophomore classes; that's all why they dump on the TERFs so hard, because they recognize their own dark reflection, because they were the First; same goes for how they loathe Zionists but accept Hoteps (dunno where Serbian nationalists stand)

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]wylanderuk 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Which is why changing rooms and toilets are pretty much the only thing that move my "give a fuck" meter and frankly having seen the general behaviours of women that have jumped into the guys when the q for the womens is too long make that one a intermittent one.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, women just barge into the gents when the queues are too much in the ladies. I’ve only seen that at football matches, but it is annoying. Especially when in most gents there are only one or two, rarely more than three, cubicles. Men still need to take a shit, and some of us have stage fright, so some men need to pee in the cubicles rather than the urinals.

[–]wylanderuk 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Nah the stand out for me was in a nightclub, one chick in the gents and her pal trying to stop guys from going into the gents. Unsurprisingly she had fuck all success with that one.

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I hoped the management kicked her out.

[–]wylanderuk 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nah they were not involved in it at all, the bouncers if I remember correctly pretty much just told her to knock it off and what did you expect to happen? when she complained about basically being body checked out of the way.