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[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

You’re right. Gay incest is seen as worse. But both are bad.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Yeah. Gay incest seems less of a problem due to that, but there is a slippery slope of rationalization from "...well, if gay incest is okay because there won't be a child born of it...then by that logic, opposite-sex incest should be okay as long as they practice safe sex....and by that logic, if the woman takes the pill or the man has a vasectomy, then they should be able to have unprotected sex....and if we're saying unprotected opposite-sex incest is fine, who cares if they use protection?"

[–]RedEyedWarriorThe Evil Cishomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. All incest should be banned.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Biologically speaking even if we did allow only gay incest that will never happen, because the straight majority has a built in biological mechanism in place that makes us find our close blood relatives as sexually repulsive in order to promote genetic diversity. ( Google The Westernmarck Effect)

A few countries actually have decriminalized same-sex incest while still making straight incest illegal and they’ve never had to worry about a slippery slope. Turns out you’d have to be quite literally insane and in the running for The Darwin Award if you as a heterosexual are sexually attracted to either your sibling, parent or (god-forbid) child.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I want to believe you, but the stats would worry about Westermarck Effect covering this [it is kind of...conveeeeeeeeeeenient...that we're only seeing this rise of support for incest after incest/"no, no, they're only step-family, honest!"] porn became popular enough to be notable.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I want to believe you, but the stats would worry about Westermarck Effect covering this

Where the fuck is there suddenly such a big increase in (heterosexual) incest? Isn’t it still one of the rarest things in the world? (Not counting cousin marriages)

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Where the fuck is there suddenly such a big increase in (heterosexual) incest? Isn’t it still one of the rarest things in the world? (Not counting cousin marriages)

I don't know about a big increase, but no-- it isn't esp. rare, and never has been... unfortunately. At least if we're talking about fathers (and even more particularly stepfathers) preying on their minor daughters. Also other male adults in a girl's family: uncles; grandfathers. When you're talking about incest... that's the prototypical example of it. Which, being male/female, really does fly in the face of the idea that there's any great aversion to it based on reproductive considerations. (And of course, with a stepfather, genetics aren't even a factor.) The aversion in contemporary culture is mainly because it's child molestation, and in a context where the child is even more vulnerable than usual-- because the man molesting her is someone whom she's emotionally, and legally, dependent on; one of the very people she has a right to look to for protection. It's a terrible betrayal of a child.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

stepfather

While definitely an inappropriate and unethical grooming relationship, I don’t count this as incest so for me the point here is moot.

Fathers, Grandfathers and Uncles

Question, is Grandfather or Uncle heterosexual incest more common than father/daughter? As much as it creeps me out to admit it I would imagine the Westernmarck Effect doesn’t extend outside of first-degree relatives (so like parents and full siblings) I mean stuff like cousin and half-sibling marriage has been a historical norm for a reason, perhaps the genetic relatedness in the case of extended family members is just distant enough to offset any potential for inbreeding side-effects and so our species hasn’t yet developed an effective innate aversion to it like we have for 1st degree incest?

The father/daughter cases being as common as you tell me is what really astounds me, why isn’t the Westermarck Effect working on these men? Unless Paternity Uncertainty makes it so that a father can never truly know if his daughters are actually his daughters and that might be a factor here in the decreased aversion to first-degree incest?

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

While definitely an inappropriate and unethical grooming relationship, I don’t count this as incest so for me the point here is moot.

I consider it incest because it's driven by the same factors as with incestuous fathers (see below).

Question, is Grandfather or Uncle heterosexual incest more common than father/daughter?

Hard to say; it's my impression that father/daughter is the most common. Which, yes, contradicts the Westermarck Effect... but there are other factors at play here, specifically cultural ones. Never forget that being the one species to possess conceptual intelligence means that our behavior is shaped not only by evolution and biology, but also by ideas. Including ones that are wrong. In both sense of the word. As well as destructive and, sometimes, just fucking stupid. Like the "trans" train wreck! And, indeed, "gender" as a whole. That's the ideology underpinning the incestuous abuse of girls. Which leads me to:

The father/daughter cases being as common as you tell me is what really astounds me, why isn’t the Westermarck Effect working on these men?

Because something else is working on them, and it's stronger: gender roles. The ancient, pervasive system of sex-based stereotypes which classify "female" as inferior and "male" as superior. Female people are seen primarily in terms of the value given them by male people; since most male people are straight, this is fundamentally sexual. Most men don't extend this rule to their daughters, of course... but, unsurprisingly, quite a few do. Because that's what girls are for, in their minds (and it's one logical way of reading gender roles, tbf).

Which is the basic reason why I hate gender-woo. And everything that arises from it. Because this is the original evil ideology. Whether anyone tries to disguise it with colorful, New! Improved!TM packaging or not.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Because something else is working on them, and it's stronger: gender roles. The ancient, pervasive system of sex-based stereotypes which classify "female" as inferior and "male" as superior. Female people are seen primarily in terms of the value given them by male people; since most male people are straight, this is fundamentally sexual. Most men don't extend this rule to their daughters, of course... but, unsurprisingly, quite a few do. Because that's what girls are for, in their minds (and it's one logical way of reading gender roles, tbf).

I think you’re mis-reading your classic case of the “which came first, the chicken or the egg” question. Gender Roles only came about because of man’s need to propagate his genes and impregnate and rape as many women possible. Men see women through a solely sexual lens because that’s generally how the two sexes of any reproductive species see each other, it’s apart of the heterosexual reproductive imperative.

I don’t put that much stock in the concept that humans are so highly evolved as to be somehow an exception to this rule, we’re just another type of animal at the end of the day. Which still wouldn’t explain this supposed prevalence of fathers raping their biological daughters since gender roles just serve to enforce man’s need to fulfill their reproductive imperative, and a heterosexual’s 1st degree relatives should automatically be excluded from the list of “viable sexual partners” for obvious reasons.

I think something else might be going on here… And if it’s not paternity uncertainty (I find it interesting that there are apparently zero cases of brothers molesting their biological sisters in comparison) I have to wonder… Tell me, do the majority of these father/daughter molestation cases take place when the daughter herself is prepubescent or is she usually a menstruating teen?

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think you’re mis-reading your classic case of the “which came first, the chicken or the egg” question. Gender Roles only came about because of man’s need to propagate his genes and impregnate and rape as many women possible.

I don't think that I'm misreading this. If gender roles came about in order to promote man's need to propagate his genes, why are they so often geared towards doing the exact opposite? Two examples: the prevalence of fathers refusing to provide financial support for their minor children following a divorce, and of men to become the most violent towards their wives/girlfriends during pregnancy. Both of these phenomena are characterized by men behaving in a way that actually DECREASES the likelihood of their genes being passed on (because his children don't survive). What sense does this make in "selfish gene" terms? None.

And I hope you're not saying that men raping women is good! Beyond the ethical/moral objections to this, though, how the hell does it work as a reproductive strategy? In most animal species, the offspring reach maturity within a matter of weeks or months (sometimes even less); many have no need of any parenting whatsoever. So a "quantity, not quality" strategy makes perfect sense here. But children need an ENORMOUS amount of care for an EXTREMELY long time; a man would do much better to invest his resources in a few of them than just run around impregnating women. Particularly by means of rape, which maximizes the likelihood that the woman will kill these offspring (either by abortion, or, in past eras, simply abandoning them to die of exposure). Again, this is counter-productive if successfully passing on one's genes is the goal, but perfectly in keeping with the imperatives of gender.

Gender roles, I'm convinced, are based on something else entirely: faulty reasoning. Just like the idea that the Sun revolves around the Earth, witchcraft is real... and people can be "born in the wrong body".

I don’t put that much stock in the concept that humans are so highly evolved as to be somehow an exception to this rule, we’re just another type of animal at the end of the day.

Oh, I don't put ANY stock in this concept, myself! That's not at all what I'm saying. It's not a matter of humans being "so highly evolved", or somehow not an animal species. It's a matter of how the element characterizing us-- for both good and ill-- is unique: conceptual intelligence. When comparing our species to any other, you have to factor this in. Only we can be shaped by ideas. And those ideas can be erroneous. Conceptual intelligence is a two-edged sword, really: on the one hand, it's the most versatile tool for survival that evolution has ever come up with... but, on the other hand, it allows us to make factual errors, and create artificial devices/conditions, which may well bring about our extinction in record time. So as to whether human intelligence makes us "superior": I'd say that the jury is still very much out on that one.

Which still wouldn’t explain this supposed prevalence of fathers raping their biological daughters since gender roles just serve to enforce man’s need to fulfill their reproductive imperative, and a heterosexual’s 1st degree relatives should automatically be excluded from the list of “viable sexual partners” for obvious reasons.

That's because gender roles are first and foremost devoted to reinforcing male superiority; this is often inconsistent with the welfare of his own biological children, and may in fact promote his neglect and abuse of them (quite possibly to the point that they do not even survive). Not that gender roles only threaten men's children; this ideology is destructive to people in general (though women most of all).

I think something else might be going on here… And if it’s not paternity uncertainty (I find it interesting that there are apparently zero cases of brothers molesting their biological sisters in comparison) I have to wonder… Tell me, do the majority of these father/daughter molestation cases take place when the daughter herself is prepubescent or is she usually a menstruating teen?

Oh, brothers certainly do molest their biological sisters; I didn't mention it because, during the period when their sisters are still children, so are most of these boys, and many aren't physically-mature enough to be sexually-predatory yet. This isn't true of fathers/grandfathers/uncles, obviously.

Most father/daughter molestation begins when the daughter is prepubescent, usually well before her teens. However, it will typically continue until he's forced to stop, usually because his daughter has gotten old enough to successfully resist and/or escape him.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

That's slightly different from what I'm saying. There isn't a big increase in heterosexual incest yet, BUT, considering that incest porn has exploded as a genre in the last decade, that obviously says there IS a big increase of people who are turned on by the thought of incest...and if that number of people who are turned on by that rises, it stands to reason there will eventually be a rise in people who manage to succeed at it.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Is this straight incest in particular that’s exploded or gay?

If it is straight is it an actual emphasis on being blood-related or is it more of a Step family fetish thing?

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It usually tends to be straight incest that is seen a lot (though gay incest porn isn't uncommon either.)

For the straight part, it depends on where it's made. Fanfiction/fanart will do more outright blood-related stuff (and it's important the rise started through hentai doujinshi which did have it as blood-related to kick it into overdrive.) Actual humans in porn, it's step family fetish stuff, but I still don't consider that a good excuse considering how many times the step fetish shit will have a scene with multiple partners, and how when this happens, each partner in the scene are sold as step-relatives of each other in a "...yeah, after you have more than about 3 people in the scene, you're not fooling anyone. If you have to have some incredibly intricate family tree of who's parent married who to explain how they're all not blood-related step-family, we all kind of know some of the people in that scene are supposed to be blood-related and engaging in incest together."

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Fanfiction/fanart will do more outright

Funny cause in fandom spheres I’ve mostly noticed the opposite - people are way more willing to ship and write/draw incest if it’s same sex, whereas het incest tends to be limited to those really creepy & degenerate Otaku oriented anime that are targeted towards pedos.

[–]LyingSpirit472 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

While I agree with you, that helps the argument I was making that something is going wrong with the Westermarck Effect: Fandom spheres where people shipping or writing/drawing incest that's same sex are doing it because of "fuck their personal relationships, these characters are hot and I wanna see them fuck", but it's non-commercial shit that's basically done for them to get off to.

Het incest being limited to the creepy/degenerate Otaku oriented anime, on the other hand, is more likely to be professionally made and sold outright in hentai magazines or even on TV/OVA levels towards those Otaku...meaning that there's enough people who are into that shit that companies will sell it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lesbian incest still sounds kinda hot.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

How is gay incest bad exactly when incest only developed as a taboo in the first place in order to promote genetic diversity to keep the species alive? (Since we produce sexually rather than asexually)

Homosexuals are already wired not to reproduce so I really don’t see what the problem is here. Why should a purely reproductive based taboo even apply to them?

This is of course assuming you’re only talking about siblings or cousins, shit like parent/child will always be immoral but even then that’s less because of the incest and more because of the fundamentally unequal power-dynamic.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

People think it's bad for the same reason some think normal gays are bad: "I don't like it so that makes it bad".

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Yep, my rule of thumb is that so long as it’s consenting adults and not harming anyone (so no potential for inbreeding) then it’s kosher and they can go hog-wild for all I care!

Considering how the wokies love to Pride (kek) themselves on how “un-bigoted” and “tolerant” they are I’m surprised they’ve yet to extend this same courtesy to consenting adult gay incest.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

They're not un-bigoted and tolerant. All they do is silence dissent, and they don't even know anything about the "minorities" they think they're fighting for. The only thing that matters is their political agenda, and they only reinforce stereotypes and misconceptions by defending them against all common sense. Right now their favorite is trans people...the fact that they're pushing all this weird "social construct" and "identity" stuff, or even worse, that's it's not a bad thing or even good, proves they have no idea what they're talking about, it's all misconceptions and stereotypes. In 2020 it really picked up with race, when all the media cheered on the rioting in the name of black people. And of course racism started gaining a lot more popularity after that, actually it started a whole chain reaction that completely destroyed the entire conservative platform, where they abandoned all patriotism and freedom and rights almost overnight, suddenly advocating for nothing but the use of government to force "traditional values" on everyone like the caricature leftists used to make of them. I know this is not only online as I've observed the same changes irl, people who changed their minds about freedom when they saw "anarchists" rioting for the left, even though those "anarchists" were actually the same socialist SJW tyrants they used to recognize as the threat. But those kinds of incidents create fear and panic, and I suppose people had no time to think any further about the matter and simply took the rioters' word for it what they stood for, and also tried to make a quick reaction by simply doing the opposite. I believe this has been a conspiracy for a very long time and was done on purpose to take over the Republican party just like the Democratic party was taken over decades ago.

And what exactly is there to be proud of in a sexuality? The answer is nothing, it just makes it look stupid; but it's very useful for political purposes.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

This is all well and good and I agree with you but that still doesn’t answer the question of why they apparently advocate for all non-offending, consensual adult relationships yet somehow make an exception for gay incest? Do they really not recognize the cognitive dissonance involved in that?

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Because they don't find them useful for their agenda.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

They’re just as gay as all the rest of their beloved LGBTQ+ alphabet soup though so why shouldn’t they embrace them?

It’s not like they’re the gay pedos that diddle kids, so they’re not directly hurting their agenda either.

[–]Vulptexghost fox girl ^w^ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That's the problem, they're not the gay pedos that diddle kids, and therefore not woke enough. They don't support homosexuals. They support "gay" as a social category along with the rest of the "LGBTQIAPFABCDEFG+ community". The people who are obsessed with their sexuality or gender to the point where it's their life's purpose. And of course always support the Democratic party so they can shove their obsession in everyones' faces, including those who have conflicting religious beliefs, and silence any and all opposition to them; even that which is unrelated to these issues, since all they have to do is say "homophobe" or "transphobe" and the mob jumps on their opponent without a second's thought. So basically reddit mods.

[–]BioEssentialism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That's the problem, they're not the gay pedos that diddle kids, and therefore not woke enough.

Most hardcore wokesters actually despise pedos though, either because they’re afraid of them making their movement look bad or they don’t believe pedophilia is a legit mental illness and think their attraction to children is simply based on them wanting power over another and not an equal partner.

Come to think of it I think this might be the reason why they don’t support consenting gay incest either, like it’d be one thing if the woke crowd simply ignored the subject or was neutral on it altogether but hardcore SJW antis on Tumblr and Twitter love using incest in tandem with pedophilia as some sort of dog whistle, even if the former is between two gay consenting adults on an equal level and similiar age such as siblings or cousins - like the post that’s the very subject of this entire thread.

I think the reason they disavow it so much is because the majority of incest cases reported in the real world is based on abuse of some sorts, so even though abuse technically isn’t inherent to incest like it is pedophilia the woke crowd zero in on those statistics because they view everything in the world through the lens of an unhealthy power dynamic. Like it’s legitimately scary how much they read into every single little interaction as some sort of oppressive power dynamic “trying to keep the people down.”

I think this is the reason why non American countries tend to be much more chill about certain types of incest (such as Hong Kong and Germany making gay incest legal) they have yet to be infested with this woke mentality that views every little thing in the world through the lens of a power struggle. It’s really fucking sick the way the wokesters view the world, normies don’t go around interpreting an oppressive power structure in every little thing they come across.

It honestly reminds me of the mob mentality Marx stirred up among the Peasantry back in the days of the Russian Revolution, he preyed on the people’s anger and riled up the underclass so much that they began to see oppression in every little aspect of their day to day lives which eventually lead to the toppling of entire governments and scapegoating of any one people or person who they perceived as “having more power than them” such as Jews.

Not surprising we’re seeing a direct continuation of this whole “stir up the mob by directing their focus to seeing power dynamic conspiracies designed to keep them down everywhere they look” considering wokeism is a direct rebranding/perversion of Marxism. Only substitute class inequality with power inequalities and oppression in general.

These types of scapegoating-like politics that zero-in on on inequality of any kind are always dangerous because they stir up the crowd and lead to obsessive and unhealthy conspiratorial like theories that begin dominating every aspect of the woketard/Marxist’s brain and prevents them from seeing the world from a normal, objective, clear and nuanced perspective.

It also ironically enough reminds me of the whole McCarthyism “Red Scare” of the 50’s-through 60’s where instead of power structures/imbalances Communism was branded as the boogeyman of the day and led to a lot of innocent people wrongfully being accused and ostracized from American society simply because the public had gone crazy in seeing “Red” everywhere they looked.