"Capitalism Rewards Efficiency"

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[–]One_Jack_Move 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (42 children)

Economies of Scale are a hell of a thing.

Honestly it's a miracle [of capitalism] that by going to mass quantities they are able to provide quality food that is cheap, easy to eat, and non-perishable. While at the same time employing a huge number of people. Everyone from the farmers, packers, distributors, merchants, and advertisers - to scratch the surface.

Your friend with a tree can (seasonally) enjoy lots of peaches, but is that all she needs (or wants)?

*I upvoted this post because it is a perfect, if simpler, example of "I, Pencil" or the "Lesson of the Pencil".
It proves how efficient the process truly is, despite the distances involved.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (40 children)

I think this is silly. There is obviously a lot of waste occuring when one looks at land usage, material usage, and use of labor. There's a massive wealth inequality which only makes sense in a capital-focused society.

[–]One_Jack_Move 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

On the contrary, when trying to accomplish a large-scale process like feeding a populous, there would be far more waste if a single head-of-state, or government department attempted to do it on their own.

Or do you think if everyone just grew a tree and some other crops they could feed a city?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (33 children)

I know if we weren't consumers and were producers like our ancestors, we'd be more stable and fulfilled as individuals. If you think my answer to capitalism is government-rule, you are mistaken. I believe scientific, naturalist clan-based democratic monarchies are the future, not industrial oligarchies like capitalism or communism.

[–]Nemesis 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I know if we weren't consumers and were producers like our ancestors, we'd be more stable and fulfilled as individuals.

This is such bullshit. Historical reality is a far cry from "Dances with Wolves" or whatever movie you dredged this fiction from. Life was hard, brutal, and short. People carried the trauma of day-to-day encounters with death from the cradle to their grave. In northern countries, many suffered from scurvy due to being unable to find anything fresh during their brutal winters. Nobody forced market economics on the people of the West, people embraced it, willingly. There was no need for the violent revolutions that preceded so many socialist and communist experiments, as free markets made people's lives so much better almost immediately. It was a development that made life easier for a broad swath of the world. The ability to trade a temporary harvest for the treasures of the world cannot be overstated in its importance.

I agree with you, completely, that consumerism robs the modern man of meaning and sanity. I would point out , though, that this has existed to an extent for thousands of year (yes unfortunately even traditional societies were obsessed with flexing riches and tying self-worth to possessions), but I would think everyone would agree it' gotten much worse, especially post WW2. I don't think market economics are to blame so much as corporations and governments jointly realizing how profitable it is build populations defined by their consumption of goods. There's an economic incentive, certainly to pursue this strategy, but it feels equally political. I would blame the destruction of religion and traditional societal organization instead. Modern man is no longer a Christian/Muslim/whatever, a patriot (post WW2/911/Vietnam that's problematic), a soldier (used to be most men would serve in some form, now less than 2%), member of a trade or business (jobs are temporary, the company man is dead), fraternal order (shriners, masons, Boy Scouts, knights of Columbus all in decline), ideology (mostly blended together and neutered, only now are we seeing the rise of extreme movements that dominate personal identity). At last the modern man is only defined by whether he's red or blue, and his $80,000 funkopop collection. I wouldn't call this a necessary product of capitalism so much as a shrewd political strategy to cultivate a new peasant class, played to perfection and at last reaching fruition. (edit for grammar)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I don't idealize the past, I simply realize modern societies have, by and large, thrown out the baby with the bathwater. There are so many malcontents in this world. You can try to say that every society of the past was horrible and blah blah blah, but its simply wrong. I don't denounce the advancements of science. Listen, please, because I say this every time someone like you acts like I have rose-tinted glasses. Industrialism, capitalism, socialism, all these fucking modern -isms are like nihilism, or existentialism. They are places we must come to as a society if we are to advance in our evolution. The thing is, this entire place (the modern age of materialist-reductionism, capitalism, industrialism, literally every -ism from the modern age that has popularity) is a hurdle we must make. Either we make it, or we fall apart and lose pieces of whats right and important, just like people who live in nihilism or existentialism. They are not bad in and of themselves, but for a society to stay with them is repugnant, it is not in unison with life. They are short-term solutions. Industrialism (and in a loose sense, western/eastern economic policy) is causing the sixth largest mass extinction event this planet has ever seen. The other five were caused by natural disasters. If man were ever a natural disaster, its because of our willingness (you say it yourself, society embraced this as a healthy reaction) to attempt to conquer nature, to attempt to throw out the lesson of the ages (spirit runs through all things). Market economies aren't bad in and of themselves. However, the societies which focus heavily on capital and not life only ever end up like Rome: wicked, twisted, and repugnant.

[–]Nemesis 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Can you define what you mean by capital? It's a store of value. Please name a society that focuses on life (whatever that means) over value. There isn't a single one. I suspect you have some sort of vague fantasy about wise ancients living in harmony with nature, but I would love a concrete example to brighten my view of human nature. Not even the most communist of historical settings were able to do without any stores of value. Even in prison settings informal economies develop to manage resource/service allocation. I'm not really getting any arguments here, just semi-religious claims, that we must advance past -isms to evolve. Why do you think this? Has another society advanced past -isms, or is this your personal belief? What do you mean by being in "unison with life"? Do you know what humanity needs to advance to? Or do you just not like the idea of isms, so the alternative is this mystical word-salad of "life", spirit, and rejecting profit and the "natural world"?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not saying we get rid of capital. I'm not saying that the ancients lived in harmony with nature, lol. I'm just saying they had a teaching that is no longer here. It was an important teaching which created really good democratic societies, such as the Iroquois Confederation (please look into it from all perspectives, they were really impressive compared to most tribes). They focused on life over value up until they started trading with the white man and got destroyed, massacred by a society which was built upon the foundation of capital>human. Another good example of this would be pre-christian Ireland and Scotland, however that history has been heavily fucked with, so I doubt you'll know what I'm talking about. These aren't societies I get down on my knees for and suck off, unlike what you seem to do with the modern ones. Look, take the best from every human civilization, and you get a scientific, naturalist clan-based democratic monarchy which has capital and a free-market, yes, but doesn't make these things the damn PILLAR society is built upon. You think the world is safely anchored to reality because of our science and our money? You are as fooled as the old "wise-men" who thought they were safely anchored in religion and philosophy.

You won't get many arguments from me. Most of my statements are for lurkers and whatnot. I don't care about changing your mind, son

No, another society has not advanced beyond -isms. If they had, I would be using them as a prime example. Probably I wouldn't even have to, their society would speak for itself.

[–]Nemesis 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Funny, I've argued this out for the same reason. I know a written argument with a stranger online will do little to change your mind, but I know there are others out there who are still learning and building an opinion. I remember a time when I wasn't as firm in my thinking as I am now, and I had a lot of doubts and fears about the future and the nature of the world. I fell prey to arguments like yours on 4chan and reddit, magical thinking about druids and Iroquois and the feel-good cult of nature/science worship.

You won't get many arguments from me.

I doubt many lurkers will read this deep into the thread, but if they do I wanted to argue until an observant reader could clearly see that there's no actual reasoning or concrete thinking behind your posts. I consider myself completely satisfied on this point.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I used to lurk and would read deep into threads. Doubt all you want. Please, be satisfied making your points. Its a game to you, isn't it?

[–]Intuit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Capitalism is just being able to own things and thus voluntarily trade them. If this is used for soul-less material acquisition, it's a reflection of an underlying condition. People get hammered by parents, the state, indoctrination, throughout life. Material accumulation is just an attempt to cope.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Capitalism is more than that, and you know it. Thats like saying a monarchy is just having a king and queen. Way too simplified, and it allows you to place the blame on what...the capitalist state? Consumerist, therefore capitalist, consumption born out of indoctrination? Especially the indoctrination part. They galvanize students into the left/right paradigm, they want you to choose capitalism or communism or socialism or whatever, because these systems all allow for them to be corrupt. The systems are corruptible. I would say that the indoctrination worked on you to some degree.

[–]Intuit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Sure, capitalism is all the things that naturally flow from voluntary exchange. What would you want instead of voluntary exchange? There's not much you can change without enabling the bad elements to be even worse. Physical things will continue to exist, and it's a question of how it's decided what they are used for. Do you want that based on merit and contribution of value, or by committee, or by who can be the most unruly and threatening to others?

I would say that the indoctrination worked on you to some degree.

If you can specifically point out something that would help me, do so. If you're going to cast vague doubts on my ability to offer arguments, then you've already checked out of the discussion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I don't take part in arguments.

[–]One_Jack_Move 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I feel you, you are right that consumerism has left folks feeling empty inside (as it should). There must be balance. But we can't fight human nature (greed). Of course, you can bend human nature with incentives. There is certainly room for more production and less consumerism inside Capitalism. People should be shown that buying shit won't fill their hearts, and that having responsibilities is a better way to finding meaning. But I digress...

Capitalism isn't perfect, it's just the best we've got. The harder part is keeping Free Markets - and reminding people it's not all about the Benjamins.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Human nature isn't inherently sinful. I don't accept that judeo-christian viewpoint.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You mean purely Judaic. Christians are the offspring of their father, the loving God who created them in His image. How could they be inherently bad? They are not, obviously. They are... INFLUENCED.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I see what you are saying, but it still stands that every Christian I have ever met believes, foolishly I might add, that humans are inherently sinful (except maybe you, I don't know if you would call yourself a Christian)

Influenced, yes, that's what I'm currently reading about.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would like to bring this to your attention then: https://saidit.net/s/Psychology/comments/58du/demons_are_real_psychiatric_experience_of_demons/

This isn't about whether or not somebody is "Christian" either. ;-)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for more information to read!

[–]One_Jack_Move 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

sinful

I don't see Greed as a sin, in fact it can be a virtue via capitalism - that's the point! Humanity runs on individuals perusing their separate goals, one can call that Greed for brevity.

This whole interview is gold, but here is a 2 minute, relevant clip if you are interested in my perspective: https://youtu.be/RWsx1X8PV_A

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'll check it out because I am interested in your position. It does seem like moral relativity, which I'm not that into on a cosmic or objective scale.

[–]One_Jack_Move 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Fair enough. Thanks for watching! I (believe I) understand your perspective and I do see it as a valid viewpoint which keeps my blind spots checked, gives me perspective, and clarifies my position. If you have a link or vid I would also be happy to see it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm sorry, but when it comes to morality and human experience, I tend to focus on my own reality and experience. If I told you to check out different philosophers or whatnot, I would have to carefully explain what I see as truth in their works, since I see so much BS even in the stuff I like. The only thing that I can point out is this "one can call that Greed for brevity"

You are using brevity in the sense that you are short of time, right? Not that this definition of greed is concise? That's the other meaning for that word, so I would like to know which one you meant. If it's the first one, then it works in a way. If it's the second one, then I disagree with the definition. Here is the definition: intense, selfish desire for something.

Its not actual greed to pursue individualized goals, so long as that goal coincides with the life-affirming nature of reality. It is greedy, but only from a relative standpoint. It's worthwhile to understand, which is why I am interested in talking to you. Moral relativity is great for empathizing or understanding other people and their actions, but I don't think its factual truth on a cosmic scale. At a certain point, everything becomes relative to reality and how the individual deals with it. So, greed isn't greed when it is life-affirming, it basically is just the sentiment of "I won't get in the way of my self." Which people nowadays seem to think is negative, when in reality, it can be incredibly positive for both the individual and all involved with the individual. That's not greed, that's self-improvement, therefore, societal improvement.

I just want to say that Milton Friedman is wrong. He asks "Has there ever been a society that didn't run on greed?" Yes, they existed, but why do you think you'll be able to read about them in this day and age where we have had an Information War (War on Consciousness) for generations? Do you really believe that all humans from all of time have been inherently self-serving? If you think so, then I would say stop watching youtube videos, stop reading books, stop intaking academic information and spend time with people of all classes, and you will find that there are folks who throw their lives into uplifting others for no other reason that because their self-development, and the self-development of the person they're helping, requires it. You may call it greed, but I call that good-will.

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is capitalism?

[–]Druullus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What is capitalism?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oo, you almost got me ;)

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You wish!

[–]LockeDemosthenes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're looking at only that package in that hand. Small minded and short sighted. There are thousands of fruit suppliers shipping to this plant and then shipping mega-loads of fruity party packs to all countries globally. If you think it's more efficient to have all industries process all products at the site of harvesting, be it fruit, raw materials, etc. you'd quickly realize just how ridiculously less efficient that would be. You sound like a high school kid who lacks more than 1 degree of separation. Your way of thinking is like thinking the car in front of you is always responsible for the traffic jam. Grow up.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it would be more efficient if we had less industries and more self-sufficiency. You nuts never pay attention to this, you just hear me talk down on your holy industrial empire and think I'm a fool.

[–]LockeDemosthenes 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You're literally advocating for easily 100x to 1000x more industries globally because you plainly refuse to acknowledge the facts. All hail the holy high school level understanding of the world.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OK my guy

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Other counties are converting underclass to low class, which helps their economy, while Das Juden loans them the cash to develop infrastructure with the hope of attracting corporations to use their cheaper labor to make enough to pay off the bank ASAP.

[–]EndlessSunflowers[S] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (30 children)

meanwhile my friend just has a pear tree in his yard (and a peach tree too)

[–]Nemesis 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

your friend isn't shipping them across the world at an industrial scale in a form that must be non-perishable. If your friend lives in rural Argentina, he might find it easier to sell them to someone else to handle distribution, instead of building a packaging factory him or herself.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (27 children)

They are saying that people should be growing and building things locally, then shipping it out if they want. Rather than what we have now, where we have a massive lattice work of deals and contracts, oftentimes creating situations of monetary imbalance in the poorer countries and a lack of practical knowledge in the heavily consumerist countries.

[–]Nemesis 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (18 children)

I'm saying it's a ridiculous comparison, because his friend can't produce preserved fruit in a disposable container at this price point(edit: price estimate <$.50 per pack) locally. These "deals and contracts" are the foundations of the international economy, and on the contrary provide tremendous opportunities for developing nations to develop. Sure you can preserve your own peaches as a hobby, but it will never realistically replace the pictured product due not only to $ and expertise, but most importantly to the average American, time. We outsource food preparation to free up time to run a modern economy. If it wasn't a fair trade, my money for spending less time preparing peaches, canning equipment, etc. then I wouldn't make the trade. That's precisely why free markets are so effective, and why they've created unprecedented wealth and heightened quality of life on every continent.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

You are dickhard over a system that will either 1: destroy the planet, or 2: be replaced by something less industrial. You are fighting a losing battle.

[–]Nemesis 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

First, I'm not advocating for industry, just a free market (voluntary exchange of goods/services for capital). I hope for an eventual future when advanced technology will remove the need for heavy industry, though who knows if that will ever come to pass.
Second, if the planet is destroyed, it won't be because the free market demands it. Look around, big business is already realizing the environment sells - it's great marketing, and people will pay more for green, low impact products. Pollution was rampant throughout China and the Soviet throughout their dalliance with communism. I think the issue could be more aptly attributed to human decision making rather than any specific ideology. People will choose short term rewards over long term benefits in a low information environment. Why develop ecotourism for a trickle of revenue over the years when you can buzz it down now and sell it to a furniture company? The decision still happens in every system, because every system involves humans pursuing value. In the USSR it was mid level officials cutting deals to clear a percentage off the transaction, or get a promotion off the local economic boost in their quarterly reports. In your "scientific, naturalist clan-based democratic monarchy" you would run into the same problem, as long as your Redditor philosopher kings are still human.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Faux-environment sells. The green movement is mostly a fraud. I agree that the base problem is individual choice, but I still have major qualms with ideologies which are destructive to non-human life (and poor humans). The thing that you don't seem to understand about the clan-based democratic monarchy is that for something that evolutionary to occur, mankind would have to advance in his spiritual understanding. It could never come about if we weren't ready to properly handle power and responsibility. Why do you think we turned away from it in the past? Because we weren't ready, we had to fall down the political rabbit hole to industrialism and capital>human , much like the philosopher must fall down the hole to find nihilism. The thing is, it will occur again because it is right. Free-markets can exist in this society, and if you really think America is a free-market, then you don't know shit. The American people have no power, it's all a bunch of manufactured consent, and has been for ages now. I hate all modern and medieval political systems. They bring forth good administrative ideas, but not much else.

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A bunch of neocons and 5th column ZioCons orchestrated 9/11 and instead of being thrown in jail cells for life or expelled from the country they now teach our children ethics at Yale or get cushy jobs in government.

Knowing that, one can then plainly see how screwed up the US is.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. Not even that, but our Founding Fathers were slave owners and talked about liberty and freedom, as they conquered lands from others. Its just a bunch of disassociation with the evil shit, and association with the "good". It's a glass house, really nice in some regards, really fucking weak in others.

[–]LockeDemosthenes 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Now i see why you're way too cowardly to respond to all of the hard points levelled against your thin understanding of the world. You're so dense we're all at risk of being crushed under the gravity. You spew self contradictions and constantly ignore what is presented to you. Won't be surprised to find your account deleted when you get a little older and experience some life.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't delete accounts.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Who are you? Nemesis? All you've done LOCKE is spew fallacies. It shows where your loyalties lie.

[–]LockeDemosthenes 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Huh?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was discussing the same topic with him on another thread, and he was getting upset. He just wants to jump in with nothing substantial to say. I appreciate you, Jesus.

[–]Jesus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I'm saying it's a ridiculous comparison, because his friend can't produce preserved fruit in a disposable container at this price point(edit: price estimate <$.50 per pack) locally.

And why is that? Is that partially because all dollars are interest bearing loans?

We outsource food preparation to free up time to run a modern economy.

Well, we shouldn't, and we should focus on sustainability and using AI and technology to do things locally. But instead we have mcDonalds and Burger King and big corporations. Modernity is a cancer when proft becomes its motive.

[–]Nemesis 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Do you plan on producing AI and technology locally? This is precisely why we outsource tasks like food preparation, home building, furniture building, so we can divert time to specialized training (the years invested in a phd, research, etc) and resulting years working full time on the job. We have mcdonalds and Burger King because people buy mcdonalds and Burger King. it pumps your brain full of dopamine, its cheap, quick and predictable. I don't eat them, but many people do. We don't have fast food at the expense of AI, I would argue we may have AI someday precisely BECAUSE we have innovations like fast food that free up our best and brightest minds to pursue their full potential. Modernity is cancer, but not because people pursue profit. People have ALWAYS pursued profit. Please point to an actual historical period where people did not pursue their self-interest. It's intrinsically human to want something better and takes steps to achieve it, regardless the society, currency, etc.

As for the first part of your response, I think you misunderstood my post. The currency I listed isn't important - I used dollars because this website is majority American. You could convert 50 cents to gold dust, silver, bitcoin, whatever you prefer, the argument stands. The point is that economies of scale produces goods like this plastic tin of peaches CHEAP, much cheaper than he ever could in his backyard, because he isn't processing 100,000 peaches at a time and distributing through Walmart. That's why things are so cheap at the store, it's because things are cheaper when you do them in bulk. It literally has nothing to do with dollars being "interest bearing loans".

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

AI and technology.

It literally has nothing to do with dollars being "interest bearing loans".

It has everything to do with it.

This is a specialized profession and the government, if it wasn't subsidizing profit-driven corporations to slowly poison the population and actually cared about their citizens (which they don't; because the US government should be a body corporate of "We the People," which it is not), would look to the future and not only subsidize these projects but provide incentives to local municipalities (corporations) to create the needed infrastructure. But since the US Government (Federal corporation: UNTED STATES INC., & c. is merely concerned with profit, the infrastructure needed for swift distribution and the rights of the laborers has been obstructed in place of a profit driven incentive that cuts all corners and looks in the opposite direction, not to an easily foreseeable future, for we have the supplies and materials but to a supply and demand that relies on the flow of interest bearing loans. Every state corporation and most country corporations, such as the US are in tremendous amounts of debt due to issuing interest bearing loans from a Judaica owned central bank (Warburg, Seligman, Lowb, Schiff, Lehman, etc.). They then use the taxpayer as collateral for the interest accrued or expropriate/mortgage it unto unborn generations, such as your children or children's children to service this idiotic debt. The tax payer then has to bailout these corporate welfare banks when boom and bust cycles occur which are inherently built into this banking system. These boom and bust cycles (mostly inflationary cycles caused by credit [debt]), gunk up distribution and severely hurt the laborers welfare. Wealth = labor; Wealth = doing good unto others; Wealth does not equal money and how much you have, period.

When these supply and demand distortions happen due to parasites in power that enforce the dreaded "Sacrifice Quota" to raise prices, all during an economic collapse, all whilst more people are starving and poor, all whilst they continue to payback accrued interest and bailout the banks.

Very backwards.

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Please point to an actual historical period where people did not pursue their self-interest. It's intrinsically human to want something better and takes steps to achieve it, regardless the society, currency, etc.

You are confusing profit motive for something better or more money = wealth, which it does not. Christians were originally anti-Usury. Our current system is based on Usury.

You could convert 50 cents to gold dust, silver, bitcoin, whatever you prefer, the argument stands. The point is that economies of scale produces goods like this plastic tin of peaches CHEAP, much cheaper than he ever could in his backyard, because he isn't processing 100,000 peaches at a time and distributing through Walmart.

That's because price is a metaphysical reality. If we created an economy around welfare of the laborer and the fruits s/he produces rather than destroy him, then all would be good. Again, the sacrafice quota illustrates the barbarity in all of this.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do you have any ready links available for information concerning this "sacrifice quota" you have mentioned? I've never heard of this before

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

https://samisdat.info/blog/the-modern-idolatry

http://samisdat.info/books/the-modern-idolatry-1934/1934%20-The%20Modern%20Idolatry%20-%20Jeffrey%20Mark.pdf

The actual book is free on Archive.org. It is a decent read and talks about the sacrifice quota often.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, seriously. This is a much better use our technology and resources.

[–]Intuit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

What's wrong with monetary "imbalance"? Why should everything be balanced?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I have no qualms with there being rich people. I have a major fucking problem with there being uber-rich people. I've met rich people. Their worst sin is being a materialist socialite. I've also met plenty of uber-rich people, and their sins are too many to count. I know "middle-class" people (this just means a few months or maybe a year of savings before being lower-class) and I know plenty of lower-class people. The vast majority of peoples problems have little to do with cash, but rather with their personal development. The problem is that the only way non-rich people will have the time to develop and mature is if they shirk monetary responsibility in some regard. What I'm saying is, the monetary system we have right does nothing but create immature malcontents and materialistic players. I'm not saying everyone be made a millionaire. I AM saying that things need to be properly managed and balanced out so that our values aren't capital>human, which is how it is in pretty much EVERY modern society. Tell me why thats good? Or are you gonna try and convince me this isn't the case?

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"If your mind is money, their mind is on you."

"If it's not on money, then please just stop living." Said all the posh uber rich billionaires.

[–]Intuit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are uber-rich people like that because of being uber-rich, or are they uber-rich because something else is rewarding them for being corrupt people? (e.g. governments and other coercive forces)

What I'm saying is, the monetary system we have right does nothing but create immature malcontents and materialistic players.

I don't see it as the monetary system, but the corrupt, violent forces that overburden people. There are endless ways the state intrudes on people's lives and extracts their wealth, only to destroy it or use it to make people's lives worse.

Take a browse of mises.org. They have lots of pieces that might point you to the ills of the state.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would say most are uber-rich because they are willing to be horrid to other humans. A small amount of them seem to have changed once they acquired their funds. I will check out that website, thank you for pointing me towards more information!

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Exactly, even if a peach grower in say Maine grew thousands upon thousands of peaches, he still would be poor and might barely make a living.

Distributing your local peaches to a supermarket costs the supremarket MORE MONEY as well as you too; for they can get peaches for cheaper in a country thousands of miles away.

Something is gutting local industry and farms!!! But who and how?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's almost like the system is efficient for the few rather than the many.

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly, and they say, screw everyone else. But interestingly, all the small farms or even locally large ones cannot sustain their financies and are closing down in mass or are subservient to debt collectors. This is a problem of antiquity. This isn't a new problem. Neoliberals and internationalist corporatists sacrifice local industry for corporate conglomerates. Even though, on a local, decentralized scale, local gorwing would be far more convenient and spur the local economy.

But yeah, we should just grow up and accept the world because we are dumb. /s

[–]Nemesis 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

They wouldn't do this if it wasn't profitable. I don't know enough about the industry, but either Argentina lacks the packing industry to handle this stage of manufacturing, or equally likely, government interference with the market via tariff or regulation has made this the cheapest way to provide the product for the American market.

[–]Extract 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Exactly - this isn't the result of capitalism, but rather national-level interference in capitalism.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Or people wanting better wages, better working conditions, and less hours. Those in the developed world just won't take hard jobs for low pay, but Asians — who live in poverty — will. But, of course, the government still has a major effect — though if all regulation where to stop this problem would still remain.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

though if all regulation where to stop this problem would still remain.

Capital>Human

[–]zyxzevn 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Maybe they get extra money from Thailand for providing "work".
And because they are an international company, spread over 3 countries, they don't pay taxes.
Etc.

[–]SaidOverRed 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You, sir, just made an argument for a flat tax AND setting it's limit to the lowest international trading partner! Well done.

[–]Tarrock 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Isn't Argentina socialist?

[–]Conductive-rabbi 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Probably, lets build the wall!

[–]Intuit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Capitalism treats regulation as damage and routes around it.

[–]Callmesavior 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They pack it in thailand,so locals can pee on it!

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What is capitalism?

[–]zyxzevn 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

If you give me 100$, I may tell you.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lmao

[–]lawuigi 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Don't listen to him!

I can get you a deal at $90.

[–]Druullus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

you don't know!

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I even can remember an example from school (25 years ago at least): How far does a yoghurt cup travel ? 6000 km .

And for a long time they took our North Sea crevettes shipped them to Morocco to strip them of their shells and then sold them in Germany. Till somebody invented a machine that does this step.

Both systems are quite questionable for various reasons. But since cost efficiency was, is and most likely will be the main argument here, what do other arguments count ?