LifestyleBattling an internal masculinity struggle right now with the gay community. Any tips would be appreciated.

submitted by nbailey73 from (self.LGBDropTheT)

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[–]mvmlego 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

First of all, this was not a derailment. The OP made it clear that certain feminist talking points contributed to his self-esteem and identity issues, and the article that I linked to contained examples of that list the sorts of talking points that he may have had in mind. I should have been more specific with regard to which points in the article that I considered significant, but I was pressed for time. Anyhow, regarding the first two sections:

1.1

1.1 is much more often applied to women

Bull crap. You can't find a single headline by a prestigious publication that makes plainly unflattering generalizations about women in the same way that the ones listed in the article do about men.

1.2

almost all violent crimes are made by men. Same as not all men are rapists, but almost all rapes are done by men... Homicide victims is weird as well, overwhelming majority of men killed by men, not by women, and most are killed by men as well, so it is male on male violence, what have it to do with feminism?

Feminists aren't responsible for violence perpetrated by men, but they're responsible for their responses to it, which often involves speaking and acting in overly-general terms about men as violent, while over-emphasizing women as the victims of male violence.

From a statistical standpoint, it's correct to portray men as the primary victims of violence in addition to portraying them as the primary perpetrators of violence. If feminists only focus on the latter, and on top of that assign group guilt to men in the same way that white nationalists do to racial minorities, then they create an environment that breeds plainly sexist attitudes and policy proposals, such as curfews for men and sex-segregated public transportation.

These examples are worth emphasizing for a couple of reasons. Not only are they the most egregious examples given in the article of feminist rhetoric that's harmful to men; they're the most unequivocally feminist. Both of the articles proposing those policies were written by Meghan Murphy--the founder of Feminist Current, which is a wholly gender-critical feminist publication.

As I said, feminism has its excesses, just like every other movement. I'm not blaming you for them; I'd just like you to acknowledge that they exist, and that they can harm men.

(EDIT: grammar)

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Part about microagression I dropped mostly because it is so overused for anything and anywhere, that it is impossible to talk about it at all.

1.1

Sadly, that Twitter account that was collecting news articles where perpetuators of domestic violence were shown in good faith, while victims in bad faith, was banned "for transphobia", so I can't link their megathread anymore. And in most cases it is not the fault and not doing of feminism as well - it is mostly done by "progressive" media on the west (where I live it is very often to see articles with headers like "woman pissed off her husband and he killed her"). And "progressive" is changing tides very often. In 2013-2016 years it was a good fashion to call everything feminism and say that you support women, in 2018-2021 it is new fashion trend by "progressive" to support transwomen and say opposite about women that was said just 5 years ago by the very same people.

In general, emotional writing is a wrong thing to do in journalism, there should be just facts, but we have what we have. Similar situation now with transwomen - when transwomen are victims, they are said to be transwomen, when they are agressors - they are named as women. Most ridiculous article was when two transwomen fight each other and one killed another, and most news outlets wrote "woman killed transwoman", that was eye rolling.

1.2

Again, male on male violence is not a feminism problem, feminism is not a movement to help everyone and solve everything, feminism is a movement, centering on human females, on women's issues. So obviously that feminism will be focusing on men harming women issues, on domestic violence caused by men to women, on abortion rights for women, and so on. If movement focus is too broad - there is no focus at all, and nothing can be solved like this.

It is men's duty to solve male on male violence, not women's. Heck - we can't even solve male on female violence, how are we supposed to solve male on male violence? Why responsibility for it is laying on us? Why the blame of male on male violence is on females? It just makes no sense.

I understand that feminism can do some harm to men and even women (mostly outside of west, and mostly because of conservative societies, tho), but named issues by you are neither caused by feminism, nor issues that are considered by feminism at all. SJW and Woke movements are not feminism, in most cases they are anti-feminism and pretty misogynistic.

And there are some weird branches of feminism, which I would not call feminism at all - as they are not focusing women at all. For example, "vegan feminism" is calling women same as cattle and calling that we should sacrifice women to liberate animals from abuse and that "it will help everyone in the end"; or "feminist political lesbianism" - which is very harmful to lesbians and that "feminism" is solely focused on men, as all ideas there and all actions are dictated from hate to men, and not from love to women; or there is "liberal feminism" - which is just "humanism" and focused on helping everyone and everything, and is not focusing on any female issues at all, it is just humanism (and in last few years it is transgender's rights movement and sex work movement, as they only focusing those issues); or "choice feminism" - where it is believed that every single woman must fight for herself, and this movement is complete and utter victim blaming movement, as if in Iran woman was walking too slow so random man on street will throw an acid into her face (it angers me that they even having bottles with acid with them "just in case woman will disobey") - they are saying it is fault of woman of not fighting hard enough. And so on. They are calling themselves "feminism", but they are not feminism even in slightest. Most sad part is that "liberal feminism" became so mainstream, that it is believed to be "the feminism" by a lot of people. In post-USSR media, for example, it is often blamed "feminists and gays" on most issues of the West. Like "female losing their sports is fault of feminists, because feminism is supporting men" - was said in one TV news show, or "feminists want your boy to become gay, so we should not let USA to export their feminist values here", and so on.

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not going to give a detailed rebuttal or read any subsequent replies, for a few reasons.

1) I already addressed some of those points.

2) It's very demoralizing to spend most of an hour trying to carefully craft responses, only for them to be bombed with satirical funvotes.

2b) A few trolls have decided to go back through the last forty-or-so comments in my history (the vast majority of which weren't meant to be humorous, and several of of which weren't expressing any opinions at all) and bomb those with funvotes as well, quite possibly as a result of the views that I've expressed in this thread.

2c) Meanwhile, the No True Feminist word vomit was for some reason considered by eight people to be "insightful". It's almost as if people are judging comments based on their preconceived notions instead of considering alternative views with an open mind.

3) Given that that the OP has shown his willingness to participate in the comments, I'll say for the third and final time: you should be talking with u/nbailey73. Most of what I've said has been in the interest of explaining and justifying his feelings about the feminist epistemology class that he dropped, which he clearly linked to his self-esteem issues.

Based on my last several threads that I've participated in, it's clear that the only form of participation that's widely valued on this sub is endlessly repetitive "Hur-dur, TRA bad" comments. I won't bother you all or waste any more of my own time by posting. Enjoy your echo chamber.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

about the feminist epistemology class that he dropped

But those classes were not feminist classes, they are "gender studies" classes and in most cases they are anti-feminist (recent research in them was about "white cis females are causing minorities to suffer", for example), intersexphobic (what nbailey73 did mentioned in his post) and homophobic. At least from what I know from people who are forced to attend those in the USA. Those classes replaced "women studies" classes long time ago. "Women studies" were active from 1980s to 1990s, but starting from 2000s they were replaced with "gender studies" instead, and mostly focusing on "being nice", racism, "pronouns", some sjw ideas and other stuff.

No True Feminist

Again, that is not feminism (and most of them are not even calling themselves feminists anyways). It is not "no true scotsman" - because I do agree that feminists can hurt men (and some women), but what you are naming is not feminism and has no connection to feminism. Racism is not what feminism is solving, trans rights is not what feminism is solving, 5 sexes bs is not what feminism is solving or doing, and so on - nothing named was in any way touching feminism.

I still can't understand why any humanist movement, left-wing movement or any social rights movement is called either feminism or socialism/communism and then always feminists or LGB are blamed for those movements wrongdoings, while feminism is often against those movements in the first place...

Recently read nice thread complaining about same ideas that are told in such classes and about people who were supporting those views: https://twitter.com/therestofus5/status/1359138700576382977