Possibly debunking the lie that most adult trans had gender dysphoria as kids: some numbers (please check logic for me)

submitted by GConly from (self.GenderCritical)

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[–]GConly[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Decades. I'm sure they've been around since the seventies or eighties.

[–]FediNetizen 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

By around I mean "how long have they been readily available and how long have people been aware of them?"

Would a kid who grew up in the 80s have known what gender dysphoria was? Would their parents? Even if they did, in a time where gay marriage was a fringe topic and transexuals were often looked down on and made the butt of jokes in media, do you think the kids parent's would have taken them to one of these clinics as readily even if they did know what it was?

[–]GConly[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yes, I knew a kid in the early eighties with gender issues so obvious that even at 14 I thought 'this boy is a girl'. He was the most classic HSTS you'd ever meet, barely passed for male even with zero female hormones in his teens. He transitioned pretty young.

However these gender clinic numbers are from post 2000, so I can't see how that could affect the percentage.

[–]endless_assfluff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This take makes sense. Your computations assume the gender dysphoria diagnosis frequency stayed relatively constant between 1900 (idk how old the oldest living person diagnosed w/gender dysphoria as a child is) and 2002. It's a reasonable assumption to make, since, as the other poster said, gender dysphoria awareness has remained low until relatively recently.

The fact that you knew one kid with a gender dysphoria diagnosis doesn't imply that every parent in that time frame with a gender-dysphoric kid, whatever the diagnostic criteria were, knew what it was and how to get a diagnosis. That's the first thing opponents are going to argue with: people have only recently become aware of gender dysphoria, so that many children who fit the diagnostic criteria may have never gotten a formal diagnosis. They may also point out that statistics can't be used to predict outcomes in singular cases and bring up anecdotes about people they know who were helped by transitioning.

You can make a stronger argument against childhood transitioning based on the statement that 73--98% of gender-dysphoric children still feel dysphoric after puberty (I can't access the link to that study but found it here; the figure they provide is based on 10 studies dating back to 1968). Your opponents can argue that gender dysphoria was under-diagnosed, but they can't dismiss the existence of de-transitioners. (Rather, they shouldn't if they were arguing in good faith, but still do.)

I'd personally say it doesn't matter how many trans adults had gender dysphoria as children. Nearly every single one of them is going to claim they did, retroactively, and it's impossible to disprove someone's statements about feelings they had in childhood. But if they're arguing "I had gender dysphoria as a child and still have gender dysphoria as an adult, therefore we should let children transition," that's not logically sound because their relationship with gender is personal, that is, not universal. What's good for them may well not be good for someone else. If you point out that many gender-dysphoric children without hormone treatment or puberty blockers detransition later, the focus becomes figuring out what's right for each child, and so claiming every GNC kid should be put on hormones/puberty blockers is going to unnecessarily hurt the ones who would have grown out of it otherwise.

Is that helpful? Do let me know if I'm just rambling and not being helpful.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

73--98% of gender-dysphoric children still feel dysphoric after puberty

Did you make a typo? Or are you really claiming that 73-98% of children who develop CGD (previously called CGID or GIDC) still have the condition after puberty?

My understanding is that the opposite is true: 73-98% of children with childhood GD grow out of it during/after puberty.

GIDS in the UK has said exactly that that only "2% to 27% of younger children with Gender Dysphoria were likely to persist with their cross-gender identification following puberty." Meaning that 73-98% no longer experience GD after puberty. https://www.genderhq.org/trans-children-gender-dysphoria-desistance-gay

The experts I've read and have communicated with say that all the evidence is that "60–90% of trans-kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood." http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html

https://www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

[–]endless_assfluff 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, that was a typo. It should say "no longer feel dysphoric after puberty," and it's just reiterating the statistic quoted in the article. I just reworded it a couple times and forgot to fix it. Sorry.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No need to apologize. I'd hoped it was a typo. But I wrote a lengthy correction for the lurkers. Who are likely to have heard propaganda that says once a child has GD for a nanosecond, s/he will have it forever and the only relief is to be found in transitioning

[–]GConly[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

73--98% of gender-dysphoric children still feel dysphoric after puberty

It's the other way around, most are no longer dysphoric after puberty. I'm well acquainted with the Steensma research.

Nearly every single one of them is going to claim they did,

So I've noticed. Major league ret-conning.

Thank you for the inpu.