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[–]MarkTwainiac 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just to clarify, male bodied persons are always allowed in female spaces like loos & change rooms in infancy and the preschool years - and usually in the early school years as well when with their mums, grans, sisters or female carers & there is no male in their party present to accompany, assist & keep them safe in the corresponding male spaces.

The custom in most places is that once male children turn 8, they no longer can use female spaces outside the home even when accompanied, watched over & kept in check by a female person. Though IME, most boys balk at using the female facilities with their mothers, big sisters, nannies & babysitters at a much earlier age as they naturally become more aware not only of sex differences, but of the differences between what's appropriate behavior in public settings versus in the privacy of their own homes. It's quite common for even boys who at home want their mums in the room with them when they bathe, and who want to cuddle & share a bed with their moms, to balk at accompanying their moms to women's loos, change rooms & locker rooms when outside the home.

When boys age 8 & up and young men insist they belong in female loos & change rooms & must use them - and they justify this based on their inner "gender identities," their (often mistaken) beliefs of how others perceive them, and the harms they claim others of their sex might cause them if they used sex-appropriate spaces - I suspect something must have gone very much awry when they were growing up. Seems they weren't taught the rules & boundaries that define what's appropriate & inappropriate behavior outside the home that everyone must abide by for a civilized society to function - aka the social contract. Or they were taught these rules & boundaries as boys, but they were raised to see themselves as so exceptional and deserving of special treatment that they truly think that the rules & boundaries that everyone else must follow simply don't or shouldn't apply to them. Which to me smacks of a combination of excessive male entitlement and a whole lot of narcissism.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I understand the need but I also understand the different reasons why people disregard it. Single sex spaces should remain single sex, but in circumstances where one must make use of such space, the pressure of having to choose between 'women' and 'men' makes it easier for an individual to justify to themselves using whatever space is most convenient or feels safest for them.

Also please explain why male bodied people's desire to be in female bodied people's spaces is more important than the reasons female bodied people need those spaces in the first place. Also why should we make an exception just for transwomen and not other groups of men?

It isn't really more important, but an individual can convince themselves it is because they see themselves as an exception who doesn't apply to the argument. "Trans women are women" is the justification, and is a belief that makes arguments about male bodies irrelevant because the male bodies of transwomen are an exception to any argument about male bodies in female-only spaces. And, "trans women are women" is the argument for why only transwomen should be an exception to the argument that other males shouldn't be an exception. The identity takes precedence over biological sex for people who wish to make exceptions for transwomen.

I'm not a fan of QT, but when the choice is 'women' or 'men' and I'm in a situation where I'm forced to choose one or the other, I choose what will draw the least amount of attention to myself and cause the least amount of overt trouble for anyone. It's easiest to just let everyone assume I'm female. If I can abstain from having to make such decisions, though, then I do, because I understand why women need women-only spaces. I realize I'm being hypocritical, but I've yet to learn of a solution in those scenarios that doesn't draw unwanted attention or 'out' me.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

in a situation where I'm forced to choose one or the other, I choose what will draw the least amount of attention to myself and cause the least amount of overt trouble for anyone. It's easiest to just let everyone assume I'm female.

You seem to think you have a remarkable ability to read the minds, plumb the psyches and instantly do a thorough inventory of all the perceptions & emotions of every stranger you encounter in the world.

Really, how do you know "everyone" you encounter assumes that you are female?

I understand your choice to act in ways that you hope & think "draw the least amount of attention" to yourself, and which make you the most comfortable. But I think it's highly presumptuous, and disingenuous, to claim, that the choices you make that cause you the least "amount of overt trouble" have the same exact impact on all the girls & women whom your decisions have deprived, and will deprive, of their right to single-sex spaces meant to provide female persons with privacy, dignity, safety and peace of mind.

Also, rationalizing your decision to use female spaces based on the claim that this causes "the least amount of overt trouble" for the female persons who have to put up with males in female spaces shows a distinct lack of awareness & understanding of customary female socialization. Girls and women are raised so that when boys & men violate our boundaries & cause us discomfort, distress, anxiety, fear & even abject terror, we should hide our true feelings, play nice - smile even - and simply remove ourselves from the situation. We are expressly told not to make a fuss or show any "overt" signs of how troubled we are inside.

Edit to add: My hunch is, the other people you are most or even solely concerned about causing "overt trouble" to are the members of your own sex whom you assume might look askance at you, make mean comments to or about you, or pose a threat to you in male facilities.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

You seem to think you have a remarkable ability to read the minds, plumb the psyches and instantly do a thorough inventory of all the perceptions & emotions of every stranger you encounter in the world.

Oh, I wish I did. 😕 C'est la vie!

Really, how do you know "everyone" you encounter assumes that you are female?

I definitely don't! If I could read minds, then I suppose I would...life is cruel, though.

I understand your choice to act in ways that you hope & think "draw the least amount of attention" to yourself, and which make you the most comfortable. But I think it's highly presumptuous, and disingenuous, to claim, that the choices you make that cause you the least "amount of overt trouble" have the same exact impact on all the girls & women whom your decisions have deprived, and will deprive, of their right to single-sex spaces meant to provide female persons with privacy, dignity, safety and peace of mind.

I suppose it would be if I did claim that...

rationalizing your decision to use female spaces based on the claim that this causes "the least amount of overt trouble" for the female persons who have to put up with males in female spaces shows a distinct lack of awareness & understanding of customary female socialization. Girls and women are raised so that when boys & men violate our boundaries & cause us discomfort, distress, anxiety, fear & even abject terror, we should hide our true feelings, play nice - smile even - and simply remove ourselves from the situation. We are expressly told not to make a fuss or show any "overt" signs of how troubled we are inside.

My hunch is, the other people you are most or even solely concerned about causing "overt trouble" to are the members of your own sex whom you assume might look askance at you, make mean comments to or about you, or pose a threat to you in male facilities.

That is an odd choice of wording I chose: 'overt trouble'. But that's a good hunch, though, it would make sense! I wish I knew what to elaborate on to address your comments and inferences. Hopefully I can word things a bit more clearly in the future so one doesn't have to extrapolate meaning from limited information, I'm sorry for that.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Just wanted to say, I followed your videos that you linked on Reddit, and I would be hard pressed to say using a women's restroom would ever "out" you to anyone. You using a men's restroom would certainly draw much more attention. I also think it makes sense to use the restroom that has the chance of causing the fewest problems for you and for those around you.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Hopefully those weren't terribly boring 😂 I appreciate that, though, and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this--thank you very much! And thank you for watching my videos! As much as I don't want to upset anyone or be disrespectful, I'm not really sure what else to do. "Go be with men" sounds easy enough, but that's just not...realistic.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ha, not boring at all. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on all of the various topics.

With regard to bathrooms, it just seems like the most sensible thing is for transsexuals to follow the protocol they've been following for decades. 30 years ago, if a trans woman passed, she'd use the women's room. If she didn't, she wouldn't. I disagree with the perspective of GC who insist it's some huge violation no matter what. There's practicality to think about. If there's not a gender neutral option, then people are forced to make a choice one way or the other. And obviously avoiding a commotion in public would be the goal.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Yay! Well, that makes me happy. I'm glad they were enjoyable!

It probably is the most sensible thing to do, though. There didn't seem to really be any problem (or it seems at least) with how all of this had been until relatively recently. I appreciate you considering practicality. Avoiding making issues when one doesn't have to is very desirable; I hate confrontation and upsetting people, so I would like to avoid all of that. As much as I agree with GC ideas, the consideration of what one is to do in these situations seems thoughtless and dismissive, and quite impractical.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The whole restroom thing really blew up and I think caused a lot of animosity where it hadn't existed before. It's hard to believe that was only like in 2016. Once liberals started designating female restrooms open to all, then conservatives started coming in with "bathroom bills" as a response. Frankly, I've never felt comfortable in restrooms designated for either sex, but my anxiety about using them wasn't as bad before it turned into a huge public fight.

Have you seen the video with the young lesbian getting kicked out of the women's restroom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlEg_dD1Zvw

That's like my worst nightmare right there. I don't blame anyone, trans or non-trans, for wanting to avoid public scrutiny and harassment.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Oh gosh, that's horrible... I don't blame you for being nervous about that now more than ever. I'm sorry it's turned into such a big thing now putting everyone on edge, I don't really know why this had to become an issue when it never was before, like, who started this nonsense?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

I would have more sympathy for this whole sentiment if trans people actively advocated for their own spaces. But they don't. Instead they call it discrimination to not let men into female spaces and then pull the "I'm scared for my safety" card for pity points, while actively trying to remove women's rights because they're not as important as their validation.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, one or two or even just a handful of people might not be well-heard, but getting more trans people to actually do so will be what leads to those kinds of changes, or more quickly at least.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

Male trans people are not interested in preserving women's rights. They are, above all, interested in validating themselves and obtaining a twisted rose-tinted view of womanhood, with amazing ideas such as sexual harassment being validating. Female trans people are, like most women, above all interested in getting male approval, even if it means throwing other women and themselves under the bus. The dynamic is old and familiar.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

The more that people are generalized, the more I feel like that's approaching stereotyping. I understand your upset as best that I can. It can be hard to solve the most difficult problems with set ways of viewing things or people, though, because it requires thinking differently than one normally thinks. But if one really wants to keep things exactly as they are, they should just continue to think and view things the same way that they currently do.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

The problem isn't with women not giving men the benefit of the doubt (again). The problem is with men consistently working and advocating against women's rights. Trying to label women as bigots for noticing that men are misogynistic towards them is a common tactic, and it exists to favour the patriarchy.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds about right, unfortunately

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 5 insightful - 9 fun5 insightful - 8 fun6 insightful - 9 fun -  (149 children)

I am a natal female, and honestly I see no point for sexsegregated spaces. For instance in a bathroom, there are already stalls, so why should it matter who is in the next stall if they are not harassing you? I live in the US and stalls have huge gaps on the bottom and top of the walls which I hate, so there is little privacy anyway regardless who else is in the restroom. As for locker rooms, you are changing in front of random strangers to begin with. Why should it matter who that stranger is? I think locker rooms should also have stalls because there are people who are uncomfortable changing in front of others regardless of the sex of everyone in the facility. This would solve a lot of issues.

Also, we consider trans women a group of women, not a group of men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (83 children)

Well, good for you for not finding sex-seggregated spaces necessary, but why do you get to decide for other women what we should get comfortable with?

Also, we consider trans women a group of women, not a group of men.

According to this study males who identifies as trans retain male pattern of crimminality, though. It's worth pointing out the authors only evaluated males who undergone full "SRS", i.e. likely the ones who are more commited to "pass" as women.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (82 children)

Well, good for you for not finding sex-seggregated spaces necessary, but why do you get to decide for other women what we should get comfortable with?

OK, if you're changing in front of a bunch of random strangers, why does the sex of those strangers matter? You still don't know them and their intentions. Anyway, stalls without gaps with those turn locks that say "vacant" in green and "occupied" in red are the answer. I don't see what difference does it make whose in the next stall if no one can see you anyway.

According to this study males who identifies as trans retain male pattern of crimminality, though. It's worth pointing out the authors only evaluated males who undergone full "SRS", i.e. likely the ones who are more commited to "pass" as women.

If someone is harassing you in the bathroom, their behavior is the problem, not their presence. In that case you should report them.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If we can reduce women's odds of being sexually harassed or straight up assaulted by roughly 90% in locker rooms and changing rooms by making them single sex why wouldn't we?

Also as for the just report them argument, please explain to me what good that will do? Do you honestly believe that there is a chance in hell that most women will see any justice whatsoever when a man gropes her, rapes her, leers at her, flashes his junk and so on? Allowing trans male bodied people in the women's single sex spaces will just makes it even more likely that she won't be believed. Right now women who step forward about sexual harassment or god forbid straight up assault are called crazy, hysterical, lying harpies and now we get to add 'transphobic' to the list if she is unlucky enough to be sexually harassed or assaulted by a transwomen.

"Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions. At least 89% of victims face emotional and physical consequences."

"Men are responsible for the vast majority of sexual violence in America. According to a 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, 90 percent of perpetrators of sexual violence against women are men. Moreover, when men are victims of sexual assault (an estimated one in 71 men, and one in six boys), 93 percent reported their abuser was a man. It’s true that women also assault men, but even when victims of all genders are combined, men perpetrate 78 percent of reported assaults."

Edit: Added if at beginning of first sentence.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel significantly more comfortable changing in a room with a bunch of random females than a bunch of random people, and I think a lot of women and girls (especially girls) feel the same.

And if someone’s behavior is the problem, not allowing their presence in the first place solves and prevents the problem. We shouldn’t have to report them, because we shouldn’t have to experience it in the first place. It’s not as if it’s common for there to be issues of sexual harassment, discomfort, or assault amongst females in female specific spaces.

It’s funny, I actually don’t care about sharing bathrooms with TW, I do feel uncomfortable sharing locker rooms, but Even of i didn’t, I would never be as dismissive of the women and girls who do care as you are. You being comfortable matters less than the women who are uncomfortable. Not that you matter less, but since you’re a female yourself, your ability to have a safe space isn’t compromised by not allowing males into that space, your rights and safety aren’t diminished if males aren’t allowed, but you seem to have no problem with taking away the rights of other females. That’s just baffling to me.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even of i didn’t, I would never be as dismissive of the women and girls who do care as you are.

This is a core ethical test (imo it fails). GB has no ethical grounds to set social convention for all females according to her personal comfort levels. Not sure why this is so common in libfem circles, except maybe the class buffer (the prominence of libfem in prestigious universities which are completely removed from the social realities of most women on the planet).

[–]BiologyIsReal 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OK, if you're changing in front of a bunch of random strangers, why does the sex of those strangers matter? You still don't know them and their intentions. Anyway, stalls without gaps with those turn locks that say "vacant" in green and "occupied" in red are the answer. I don't see what difference does it make whose in the next stall if no one can see you anyway.

I really don't know what to tell you. It's really hard to believe that you don't understand why people would be more uncomfortable changing besides people of the opposite sex. Is that a new rule of sex positivity? People shall not feel shame when naked in front of anyone because that is prudish? Then again, you often complain about the gaps in bathroom's stalls and think locker rooms should have individual stalls. So, you obviously care about privacy, which is why I find your position so odd.

And besides privacy's matter, women have to worry about safety issues. As other users have said, most violent crimminals are males and sex predators are overwhelming males. And men have a physical advantage over women if a fight happens.

If someone is harassing you in the bathroom, their behavior is the problem, not their presence. In that case you should report them.

When you report such incidents it's already too late. Women are quite often either disbelieved or blamed for their assaults. Males often get away with such behaviours, too. By barring males from entering intimate places like women's bathrooms, locker rooms, etecetera you're decreasing the possibility of harrasment, rapes, spy cams, etcetera. Creeps don't care about respecting boundaries, but surely they care about not getting caught. Until transgenderism gained so much support, a male would have a pretty hard time justifying their presence in women's bathrooms, etcetera. However, once you make special exceptions for certain kind of males all this protection is gone. What is more, now in certain places trans identified males who are convicted for sex crimes or violence against women can be sent to women's prison, where they can keep abusing women.

Here are some relevant links about these issues:

Single-sex toilets needed to overcome girls' barriers to education,' says Unesco

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

Women are losing access to public toilets 'by stealth' amid a boom in gender-neutral loos, say experts

Why was convicted paedophile allowed to move to a female jail?

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You do acknowledge that transwomen have male bodies right?

One of the benefits of single sex spaces is that I know I am sharing it with other people who also have female bodies and know what it is like to have one. This is especially important for teenage girls who are dealing with menstruation. The last thing they need is to be harassed by boys or god forbid grown ass creepy men when dealing with very personal strictly female bodily functions.

A far too high percentage of male bodied people engage in unacceptable behaviors ranging from leering, unsolicited sexual/inappropriate comments, flashing, invading personal space, groping, stalking, placing cameras in locker rooms and bathrooms then posting the videos online to full on sexual assault/rape/murder. As a general rule of thumb women aka female bodied people don't do this shit. Roughly statistically men are 95% more likely to engage in those kinds of behaviors, hence the need for single sex spaces, because women shouldn't have to tolerate the above listed behaviors in any way shape or form.

Transwomen are not special. They have the same likelihood as any other male bodied person to engage in these atrocious behaviors hence why we should not make an exception for them. It's basic safeguarding that massively benefits 50% of the population, so absolutely worth it to keep these spaces single sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Why do you think just because you and some other people are comfortable that that means the women who are uncomfortable don’t get a say?

  2. Who is “we”?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

I think locker rooms should also have stalls because there are people who are uncomfortable changing in front of others regardless of the sex of everyone in the facility

Last comment I’ll make until I see new comments:

there’s a huge difference between an individual being uncomfortable changing in front of anyone and a female uncomfortable changing around males.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Interesting how quickly and easily gb dismisses discomfort she doesn’t experience but other women do, when she argues that men’s feelings about womanhood aren’t considered enough by gc/radical feminists.

No empathy or tolerance there for women whatsoever.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That’s what’s baffling to me.

Like- fuck the rights, privacy, safety, sense of safety, and comfort of women and girls, men’s feelings are on the line! It’s just a stance I will never understand.

What bothers me most when women act all “pick me” towards transwomen is that they are so willing to sacrifice the rights and needs of slightly over 50% of the population for less than 1% of males. And they are willing to do this based on an ideology that not only can’t be proven, but is so easily disproven. It’s absurd to me.

And for GB’s justification to always seem to boil down to “well, I’m personally not bothered by it” and “I personally believe in tra rhetoric” just makes it that much worse.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Always, always ‘well I’m not bothered so you need to feel differently about xyz’ from gb. It’s amazing how far liberal feminists will go in terms of undermining their own interests and the interests of other women in order to be socially acceptable to a group of men.

It’s incomprehensible, cutting off her nose to spite her face but her face here is women’s rights. Like..I guess fuck elderly women, religious women, shy women, or any other woman who isn’t okay with having men in every conceivable space there is.

Gotta admire the dedication to faith I guess? When belief trumps decades of crime stats and the words of a million other women it’s some damn deep faith

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

‘well I’m not bothered so you need to feel differently about xyz’

AKA luxury beliefs ("concessions from thee, but not from me" -- often because the holder of the belief is among those least likely to actually have to use unisex locker rooms; they have alternatives).

[–]worried19 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, I also feel comfortable using the men's restroom or stripping naked in front of strangers of either sex. That doesn't mean every other woman in the world is or that I have the right to consent on their behalf.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Worried, also keep in mind that just because you feel comfortable stripping naked in front of strangers of either sex at this point in your life doesn't mean you always will at every age and in every circumstance. You might feel differently when/if you're far along in pregnancy; you become elderly; if you become disfigured due to accident or disease; if you put on a lot of weight due to aging, illness and/or disability; if you become emaciated; or even if you develop minor physical flaws that many people feel self-conscious about, such as stretch marks, scarring, cellulite, sagging, loss of muscle tone, wrinkling, pigment changes.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess so. I don't think I'd ever mind being naked due to appearance, but I hadn't thought about becoming older and infirm. I was comfortable naked as a kid and teenager and now in my 20s, but I'm in the prime of life right now.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not to be a downer, but even in the prime of life people can and do come down with diseases, and fall victim to accidents and tragic events, that result in massive bodily changes - wasting/emaciation, crippling, amputations, visible scarring, "grotesque" swellings, visible growths and skin markings (tumors, lesions like Kaposi's sarcoma, severe psoriasis, full-body rashes, loss of all body and head hair...). Such changes can markedly change our feelings about our bodies, and can make us far, far less comfortable being seen naked by others than when we were healthy and looked "normal."

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's true. I suppose you'd never know for sure how it would feel unless it happened to you.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (42 children)

What difference does it make if the strangers are male or female? You still don't know them, their intentions, etc.

[–]AlexisK 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Again, this answer is so bizzare. Have you been living on planet Earth at all? This looks like either you are ignorant and dishonest, or you are very privileged middle/high-middle class woman from a good neighbourhood.

Maybe because of criminal statistics? Of how patriarchy works? Of how males are much stronger physically and faster than females on average? Because if stranger male is entering safe zone - this means they are most likely have vile intent, because good males would prefer to not create any discomfort for women? And that 85% of violent crimes are done by males, and of them 96-97% violent crimes against females are done by males? That 99+% of all rapists are males and almost 100% of all rapes against women are done by males? And that almost all cases of filming are done by males?

While if stranger is female - most likely you have similar strenght, similar running speed, and that most likely that female have no vile intent at all? And even if in very rare case when you get raped by another female - you can't get pregnant? And seems you don't know why it is when dark at night you are returning from a job if you hear female steps it is more like a relief, while hearing male footsteps will make you feel fear?

That question "what difference" is so bizzare, and said from such a big privilege position.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

And that 85% of violent crimes are done by males, and of them 96-97% violent crimes against females are done by males? That 99+% of all rapists are males and almost 100% of all rapes against women are done by males?

This is wrong.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wo.pdf

While if stranger is female - most likely you have similar strenght, similar running speed, and that most likely that female have no vile intent at all?

In freshman year of high school I was groped by cis girls in the locker room. They were suspended, but they still were allowed to return to the locker room. No one ever forced them to change in the boys locker room and I had to deal with the fact they could harass me again, Don't assume that females most likely don't have vile intentions at all. That is simply not true.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your link confirms that 85% of violent crimes are committed by males and that 99% of all rapes are committed by males.

The only thing I can think you'd be referring to is where it says 3/4 of victims of female violence are female, but taking into account the rate of male vs female perpetrators, males still commit almost all violence against women.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Re your personal anecdote:

  1. Im sorry that happened to you. That doesn’t disprove the fact that the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment/assault is perpetrated by males against females. We never said that no female would ever harm another female, we are saying that that is significantly less likely to occur. Even a female who harms other females is at risk of harm from a male.

  2. There’s a reason the school didn’t force the girls who harmed you to use the boys room. It has a lot to do with the first thing I said.

  3. If your point was to say that females are violent too, that still isn’t a good argument for unisex spaces. That just sounds like you’re pushing to increase our risk of harm, since apparently we have to watch out for other females and now males, instead of only be worried about potential female assailants, whom we could reasonably stand a chance against.

[–]AlexisK 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

And that link confirmed what I've said.

In freshman year of high school I was groped by cis girls in the locker room.

That's why you want much-much more girls to be groped by males now because very rare cause of female groping other female happened with you?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why are you comparing being raped by a man with being groped by a woman? Why do you have different standarts for men who assault and women who assault?

She almost made you pregnant and was strongly overpowering you, was much taller and bigger?

This is wrong.

Your own link saying that it is not wrong.

3/4 offenses are simple offenses

So just few hits or quarrel. Your link shows women even less violent than I thought.

Self-reported

I would not trust men self-reporting about women attacking them, in the study about domestic violence, almost 33% of self-reported cases of domestic violence of women against men were "she said no" or "she refused to have sex" or "she was screaming at me as she tried to clean all house and I just wanted to watch football". Which are, obviously, not domestic violence, but are seen by those men as one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like so many people have addressed this same thing with you. If it doesn’t matter, what is the issue with having a female space and a male space, and keeping them separated by sex? If it doesn’t matter to you, but does matter to some females, why not respect the boundaries of the females that have boundaries they don’t want crossed?

I don’t understand how you can tell females it doesn’t matter but you seem to think it matters that TW be allowed to access female spaces? If it doesn’t matter to you that females can’t have their own spaces, why does it matter to you that TW have access to female spaces?

Why are you so concerned with what TW want, but able to disregard female boundaries?

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

But it's not just strangers we're talking about here. It's also family members, school classmates, work colleagues, neighbors...

The fact is, most communal change rooms are open-plan - and due to space constraints, that's how they most likely will always stay. Which means you're arguing that all families who go to a swimming pool or water park together should have to change in & out of their bathing suits with one another regardless of their different ages & sex. In other words, MA moms, teenage daughters & senior citizen grannies should have to be naked in front of MA dads, adolescent & teen boys, & elderly grandpas - and vice versa. As though in families, bodily privacy & sex boundaries should not be a thing.

Leaving aside female people entirely, as you clearly don't care about the vast majority of girls & women, the policy you advocate would be particularly hard on a segment of the sex you DO care about, namely pubescent & teen boys. Much to their embarrassment, males of that age get spontaneous erections and often find their dicks get stiff & stand up visibly at the slightest stimuli - including seeing their mums & grannies & sisters in their knickers, or sometimes just being in close physical proximity to their female relatives when fully dressed. The young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do. Perhaps if you'd raised some boys you'd know that.

You're also saying that co-workers & classmates of the opposite sex should be forced to share toilets, change rooms & showers in schools and workplace settings. Where does that leave all the girls & women who want a measure of privacy when dealing with intimate bodily matters specific to the female sex like menstruation, flooding due to menopause & fibroids, pregnancy, breast leakage & miscarriages - many of which happen outside the home? Can't you see that many girls & women would feel uncomfortable washing blood off their hands & clothing, or washing out moon cups, with their male workmates & classmates looking on? Many girls & women have had instances where we've had to remove our skirts or trousers to wash blood off them at the sinks in communal loos, activities that can't be done in the stall. Similarly, a majority of breastfeeding women who work outside the home have had occasion to need to remove their tops to remove splotches of leaked breast milk, which again can only be done at the sinks rather than in the stalls. Then again, perhaps you think girls & women should have wash our hands & clothing off & rinse our moon cups by dunking them in the toilet bowls.

And where does your policy leave all the boys & men who feel bashful about taking a crap with their female work colleagues & classmates in the room? And all the boys & men who like to nip into the loo during the day for a stress-relieving wank? Don't you think the policy you advocate would be a discomfiting imposition on them, their privacy, bodily freedoms & peace of mind too?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This was so awkward and uncomfortable to read, but that’s exactly why it’s such a good point! Even GB’s all important males could feel uncomfortable.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If it's awkward & uncomfortable to read, think of how awkward & uncomfortable it is to actually be in these situations! For everyone concerned. Except, that is, for people like GB & the small segment of the male sex she's catering to.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. Awkward and uncomfortable because it's exactly what goes on daily in bathrooms, unlike the highly edited and mythical "we just wanna pee" bathrooms of trans rights propaganda.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (30 children)

The fact is, most communal change rooms are open-plan - and due to space constraints, that's how they most likely will always stay. Which means you're arguing that all families who go to a swimming pool or water park together should have to change in & out of their bathing suits with one another regardless of their different ages & sex. In other words, MA moms, teenage daughters & senior citizen grannies should have to be naked in front of MA dads, adolescent & teen boys, & elderly grandpas - and vice versa. As though in families, bodily privacy & sex boundaries should not be a thing.

Then maybe we should have separate facilities based on age as well. Old women go here, young women go here. MA women go here.

Leaving aside female people entirely, as you clearly don't care about the vast majority of girls & women, the policy you advocate would be particularly hard on a segment of the sex you DO care about, namely pubescent & teen boys. Much to their embarrassment, males of that age get spontaneous erections and often find their dicks get stiff & stand up visibly at the slightest stimuli - including seeing their mums & grannies & sisters in their knickers, or sometimes just being in close physical proximity to their female relatives when fully dressed. The young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do. Perhaps if you'd raised some boys you'd know that.

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

And where does your policy leave all the boys & men who feel bashful about taking a crap with their female work colleagues & classmates in the room? And all the boys & men who like to nip into the loo during the day for a stress-relieving wank? Don't you think the policy you advocate would be a discomfiting imposition on them, their privacy, bodily freedoms & peace of mind too?

I've used the men's restroom many times, and most men didn't care.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

WTF? LOL. I said nothing of the sort. I pointed out that

young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do.

Adolescent boys who get spontaneous erections and find themselves aroused at awkward moments by all sorts of stimuli adults of other ages might not find erotic are not "harassing" women.

You really seem unable to see beyond your own personal experience and to be wholly incapable of having empathy for any other human being. Talk about solipsism. Sheesh.

I've used the men's restroom many times, and most men didn't care.

So why can't the "transwomen" you are so concerned about do the same?

Also, did you and do you customarily ask the men you encounter in men's restrooms how they feel about your presence there? Or do you just assume that if it's OK with you, then it must be OK with every one of them?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (26 children)

Adolescent boys who get spontaneous erections and find themselves aroused at awkward moments by all sorts of stimuli adults of other ages might not find erotic are not "harassing" women.

Is that a problem? You can always ignore an erection.

So why can't the "transwomen" you are so concerned about do the same?

I believe all restrooms and changing facilities should be gender neutral with stalls.

Also, did you and do you customarily ask the men you encounter in men's restrooms how they feel about your presence there? Or do you just assume that if it's OK with you, then it must be OK with every one of them?

I never asked men. Most don't seem to care, some point out I'm in the men's room, to which I respond I don't care. A few objected, and I remind them they are the ones who started talking to me. I don't care what men think.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Is that a problem? You can always ignore an erection.

But it's not just about the other parties present having to see - or ignore - adolescent boys' spontaneous erections, it's also about the embarrassment that they cause the boys themselves. Pubescent boys find the unpredictable behavior of their penises mortifying enough in any event - why add to their distress by creating situations where their unwanted, embarrassing boners are naked & in full view of their female relatives, teachers, neighbors, classmates, etc?

Young males are just as susceptible to feeling bodily shame as females are. And most of them really worry about others judging their bodies, including or especially their dicks, and finding them lacking and laughing at them. Already, not enough consideration is given in our culture to the feelings of shame & inadequacy that many young males have about their male bodies especially as they start developing secondary sex characteristics. In fact, not giving enough credence to these feelings in young males is one of the reasons why so many boys & young men are developing "gender dysphoria," fantasies about changing sex, autogynephilia and other paraphilias, eating disorders, sick obsessions and other maladaptive coping behaviors.

I believe all restrooms and changing facilities should be gender neutral with stalls.

We know this. But that's pie in the sky. It's not gonna happen. The rest of us here are having a convo about the real world in the present time.

A main goal of a civilized society should be to allow everyone regardless of age, sex, race, physical ability, cultural heritage, belief, religious faith, background etc to participate in society and move through the public world outside the home with a sense of dignity, bodily privacy and peace of mind. But you seem to relish the idea not just of removing girls' and women's safety, privacy, dignity, boundaries and peace of mind, but of creating a world where boys at vulnerable stages in their physical and psychological development will be robbed of their privacy, dignity and peace of mind as well.

I never asked men... I don't care what men think.

Of course you didn't ask. Coz you seem not to give a shit about anyone but yourself and the one small, select group whom you place above everyone else. Sorry, but you come across as utterly bereft of the qualities of both brain and heart that are necessary to devise public policies that are fair and humane to all the diverse parties involved.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (24 children)

But it's not about the other parties present ignoring adolescent boys' spontaneous erections, it's about the embarrassment that they cause the boys themselves. Pubescent boys find the unpredictable behavior of their penises mortifying enough in any event - why add to their distress by creating situations where their unwanted, embarrassing boners are naked & in full view of their female relatives, teachers, neighbors, classmates, etc?

Then change in a stall.

We know this. But that's pie in the sky. It's not gonna happen. The rest of us here are having a convo about the real world in the present time.

But there are many of us who fight for gender neutral spaces.

A main goal of a civilized society should be to allow everyone regardless of age, sex, race, physical ability, cultural heritage, belief, religious faith, background etc to participate in society and move through the public world outside the home with a sense of dignity, bodily privacy and peace of mind.

This is exactly why we have discrimination laws.

Of course you didn't ask. Coz you seem not to give a shit about anyone but yourself and the one small, select group whom you place above everyone else. Sorry, but you come across as utterly bereft of the qualities of both brain and heart that are necessary to devise public policies that are fair and humane to all the diverse parties involved.

Just because I am against sex-segregated spaces doesn't mean I only think about myself above everyone else. That's a bold assumption to make.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then change in a stall.

But we're specifically talking about open change rooms. Your "solution" is akin to the Queen of France's response when she heard that millions of French peasants were starving due to lack of bread: let them eat cake.

But there are many of us who fight for gender neutral spaces.

Total non sequitur, LOL. My point was that most change rooms in the real world at the present time are large communal spaces that do not have stalls for everyone (or anyone), and due to space & budget constraints, that's likely to remain the case. And you come back with: Many of us fight for mixed-sex spaces. Huh?

This is exactly why we have discrimination laws.

Excellent illustration of the fact that you have no clue about how societies actually work. Anti-discrimination laws are legal instruments that IRL function as tools of last resort. The reason most people in democratic, plural societies try to treat others decently, humanely and fairly isn't because anti-discrimination laws are on the books, and we're afraid of getting sued or hauled before a human rights tribunal. It's because of the values and rules we were raised with. It's because moral development is a key part of child development, and people raised in plural societies that aim to be democratic and fair are generally taught growing up that a) other people are separate to us; b) other people often feel differently about the same exact situation than we ourselves do; c) other people have rights just as much as we ourselves do, our own rights do not come before the rights of others; d) the rights of different individuals and groups often clash and conflict; and d) everyone's different views and rights need to be taken into account - and accommodated - in designing and running public provisions, institutions and programs.

Just because I am against sex-segregated spaces doesn't mean I only think about myself above everyone else. That's a bold assumption to make.

Bold as it may be, what I've said is not a baseless assumption. Far from it, in fact. I've arrived at a conclusion based on observation of the evidence you've provided in your own very clear statements individually and in totality - evidence everyone who reads your posts can see.

It's not your opposition to sex-segregated spaces that make you come across as though you only think about yourself and you place you and your feelings above everyone else. It's the solipsism, callousness towards others and the downright cruelty you've repeatedly displayed - and seemingly proudly too.

BTW, some of us here who disagree with you are also for the addition of mixed-sex spaces, and/or of more unisex spaces such as single stall toilets. Some of us here actually have fought in the trenches for such. I've personally been involved in campaigning for wheelchair accessible toilets (single use ones as well as enlarged stalls with bars in communal loos) and for female-only spaces in workplaces where lactating mothers can express breastmilk in dignity and hygienically, and dedicated refrigerators where we can safely store it until the end of the work shift too.

If you were arguing for additional mixed-sex communal spaces and/or additional unisex single-user spaces, many here would back you. But you're not advocating that new spaces & provisions be added to what already exists - you want to remove the existing single-sex spaces that work so well for so many, and which previous generations of women fought for. Moreover, when others point out that removing single-sex spaces will discomfort, distress and endanger large swathes of the population, particularly the female 51%, you a purported "feminist" double down and say, in effect, tough shit.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You’re literally telling women to go change in a stall so we don’t have to look at teenagers erections lmao.

You’re absolutely putting the feelings of others way below yours and the feelings of hypothetical men. If you can’t see that, you’re being deliberately obtuse to a degree that boggles the mind.

You are very clearly unwilling or incapable of showing empathy for women. Dismissing women’s feelings and telling them to leave their space and change in the little box (that doesn’t accommodate a wheelchair or a walking frame, fuck you disabled women) so boys don’t get embarrassed over the women in the women’s changing room seeing his accidental boner. You could save yourself time and just tell us all to go fuck ourselves and obey men instead of couching that exact idea in all the caping for gender.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then maybe we should have separate facilities based on age as well. Old women go here, young women go here. MA women go here.

This makes no sense whatsoever. The issue here isn't that old women might be preyed upon by MA women or teen girls, or that old women will perv on little girls. The issue is that humans come in two sexes, not that within each sex there are people of widely varying ages.

Also, your suggestion of segregation by age here ignores that for all sorts of practical reasons, people of one age group often rely on people of another age group to help them in changing & toileting, from dressing/undressing them to wiping asses to simply lending a helping hand.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

Gotta love it when liberals argue that protections of women from male violence are misandrist. Men harrassing and assaulting women is not the fault of women, nor is it up to women to fix men being fucked up and misogynistic. It's up to MEN to get their act together and stop preying on women in such high numbers that women need spaces free of them just to lead a semblance of a normal public life (which is the entire reason why feminists advocated for these spaces in the first place). Women's spaces are not the reason why men prey on women. It is absolutely fucked up to blame women and their spaces which exist as protection from male violence for the continuation of said male violence. Stripping protections of vulnerable groups because that's supposed to teach men not to assault women isn't going to make men not assault women. Even if your twisted misogynistic logic made sense, we literally have centuries of history where women lacked any spaces and protections, and guess which half of humanity specifically abused that to the point of having institutionalised ownership and rape of women, and guess which one didn't?

[–]kwallio 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I think you should look up the whole korean hidden camera problem. And its a problem in the states too - guess what, its single room omnigender bathrooms like in Starbucks that are targeted the most!

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I just posted a story about spycams in a Starbucks john - and many other stories about spycams in toilets - above. I also did a search and came up with page after page after page of porn sites featuring spycam toilet footage from all over the world, not just South Korea - lots it from cameras placed inside the toilet bowls so women's privates can be seen "up close & personal" as they urinate, defecate, remove & insert tampons and otherwise deal with intimate matters of female biology such as menstruation.

[–]kwallio 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, its sick how many people are into the voyeur thing.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

As for locker rooms, you are changing in front of random strangers to begin with. Why should it matter who that stranger is?

To be clear, are you asking "why should it matter who that stranger is, be they (untransitioned) male or female?"

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Yes.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That hurdle is nigh unto unclearable in the U.S. based on legal interpretations of positive sex discrimination viz. religious practice alone.

[–]worried19 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Out of curiosity, would you be comfortable sharing a prison cell with several convicted criminals who all have working penises and unaltered hormones? I can't imagine even the most hardcore QT woman agreeing to that.

[–]AlexisK 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

And don't forget that majority of females (both women and transmen) in prisons are for non-violent crimes, while majority of males in prisons are for violent crimes (both men and transwomen), so it is even worse considering this - as most likely it will be female who is in jail for stealing money getting in same jail as male who is there for beating man or woman, or for murdering someone, or for raping woman.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like QT women would agree to that, much like how someone would proudly claim they'd fight against a bear from the comfort of their sofa. Hell, once the inevitable happens, they might even convince themselves that this predictable outcome was all just a stroke of astonishingly bad luck, and that perhaps things would've been better if only women weren't so exclusionary and misandrist against these poor men.

It's not that QT doesn't have eyes or a brain and that they legitimately are not aware of our society's patriarchal trends, it's that they can convince themselves against all rhyme and reason that male violence is either one big conspiracy by the extremist feminazi trying to make the cool feminists look bad, or they blame women for it because they're not understanding and inclusive enough of men. It's an ideology that preys on female complacency and tendency to self-blame combined with non-stop patriarchal gaslighting.