QT: Do women have a right to boundaries?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Short answers is yes. Especially when its pertinent those spaces are based on sex.

Longer answer, it depends on how passing the trans-person is, and the specific space in question. I don't agree with the all-or-nothing approach some QT and GC have. It doesn't make sense for a completely non-passing transwoman, who visually appears like a man, to enter women's spaces. And on the other side, it seems a bit extreme to exclude well-passing transwomen from all spaces.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I see why you would say this but doesn’t it make you a little squicked to think about how this is basically ugly people get less rights. That feels... wrong on a deep level.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

“Doesn’t match societal conventions for women’s appearances” is better and more accurate than “ugly”

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

A non passing trans woman is an ugly trans woman. I stand by that. As an ugly trans woman.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

No one is ugly.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Society has appearance standards. Some people don’t meet them. I’m one of them. It’s not the end of the world but, yeah some folk are ugly.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I mean by that logic rich, white, able bodied, young people are the most attractive demographic considering the prejudiced nature of the society we live in. I reject that oppressive logic though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To a point, but some people are ugly. It’s so bizzare that you object to that.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

It’s a viewpoint I utterly disagree with. You’re entitled to your opinion though of course.

[–]FlanJam 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well yeah, I admit it doesn't sound nice, but idk any better solution. The other options are far worse imo. Well, third spaces are probably ideal but its not pragmatic.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

For me it’s the opposite, it’s either all in or none in or else we’re just prioritizing convention gender appearances at the expense of non gender conformity, something which already is occurring with cis women who don’t match the normative expectations for women’s appearances.

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I see what you're saying, but for me its not so much about appearance, but rather how well someone harmonizes with the space they're entering. I like what Buck Angel said, it doesn't make sense for him to use a women's bathroom because it'd make everyone uncomfortable. It makes far more sense for him to use the men's room. And I'd say the same for a non-passing transwoman who looks like a cis man, it'd make more sense for them to use the men's room.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

And non-trans women who are consistently misgendered for their non-normative appearance? Should the not use the women’s room out of concern for the comfort of others? Non-trans women have been tossed out of and even assaulted for using the women’s room, so this is not a theoretical problem.

[–]FlanJam 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well of course a non-trans woman can use the women's restroom. Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. I don't care about gender conformity, appearance, dress, aesthetic, etc. Its more about the sex rather than gender. A butch lesbian can have the same clothes, hair, makeup, etc as a passing transman. But I think its pretty clear that the butch lesbian belongs in the women's restroom, and the passing transman belongs in the men's restroom.

And to be clear, when it comes to restrooms the bar is pretty low for me. A transwoman doesn't have to be perfectly passing, as long as she's somewhat distinguishable from a cis man. I just don't want someone who looks exactly like a cis man to use the women's room, that doesn't seem right to me.