QT: Do women have a right to boundaries?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (13 children)

Most trans women are smart enough to not go into them obviously. But you have 2 personal accounts in this thread from among the minority of members here who are trans. Men hate trans women and we can’t contend with them physically. Being forced into isolated and difficult to escape places with them puts us in danger. It just does and it makes no sense to deny that.

You do understand that allowing men who claim to be women in the women's restroom defacto makes it unisex and defeats the whole purpose of banning men from single sex spaces for women in the first place right?

I don’t agree with that but my preference is single occupancy neutral spaces anyway.

This also isn’t true since at minimum there would be fewer men (and therefore less danger) as well as a higher odds that a non man witness would be present to call for help or ensure that we get care after the attack. But again I prefer single occupancy.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Here's the deal those stories are anecdotal. I need actual stats. I am fully aware there are homophobic men who will go after men who aren't masculine enough for their own tastes. The solution is to hold these men accountable and change our culture so men tolerate other men who are feminine including men who claim to be women. We need to reduce men's homophobia, misogyny & transphobia. Men need to buck up and act like adult civilized human beings. (Obligatory not all men for the whiners, but too many men.)

I'm glad you are okay with not violating women's boundaries and a neutral space solution, but I am concerned about the trans activists who think that it is okay. The risk of assault and murder on trans identified people has been exaggerated by bad stats. We need a firm basis in reality to have a solid discussion. If a trans person is not a prostitute their risk of murder and assault is very low. Yes it does happen, but male on male violence is a completely different ball field than male on female violence.

[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I am fully aware there are homophobic men who will go after men who aren't masculine enough for their own tastes

P.S. Don't come at me with men who claim to be women aren't safe in men's restrooms, & locker rooms. The vast majority of men would just give them a double take and ignore them. Men are perfectly safe using the men's room no matter how they may personally identify.

Sure seems like you aren't, bud.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

Here's the deal those stories are anecdotal. I need actual stats. I am fully aware there are homophobic men who will go after men who aren't masculine enough for their own tastes.

I’ts bit common because we don’t go there. Your solution is just put us all in as much danger as possible and then once enough of us are attacked maybe act then?

The solution is to hold these men accountable and change our culture so men tolerate other men who are feminine including men who claim to be women.

That is impossible and won’t protect us or the effeminate men. You can’t rehabilitate all the monsters out of male culture. Even if you improve some it only takes one and there will always be enough.

We need to reduce men's homophobia, misogyny & transphobia. Men need to buck up and act like adult civilized human beings.

Sure but we can never be safe with men. Those situations can’t be made safe. There will always be enough that hate us and the ones that don’t wouldn’t help us if we were attacked.

If a trans person is not a prostitute their risk of murder and assault is very low.

What’s your basis for that? Because I’ve been attacked and I know many trans women who have. Just because we aren’t dead doesn’t mean we are safe.

I’m not ignoring your cited concerns but it’s unfair to dismiss the violence against us. We are hated by men and largely incapable of protecting ourselves from them. I wish you would at least acknowledge that. A trans women being attacked by a man is different than a cis man venting attacked by a man. It’s a different ball game.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551619/

"Findings suggest that transgender people overall may not face a higher risk of being murdered than do cisgender people but that young transgender women of color almost certainly face a higher chance of being murdered."

I am saying the claims of violence against trans people are exaggerated and that is an important point, because many trans people try to use it as a cudgel to demand that women allow their boundaries to be violated. Gay men, especially effeminate gay men are more likely to bullied and attacked, but that does not mean they should be allowed to use women's single sex spaces. Effeminate Gay men use men's restrooms without incident the majority of the time and on extremely rare occasions if they are unlucky they get attacked.

Even with the disturbingly high rate of sexual violence against women we still need to live our lives. Heck getting into a relationship with a man significantly increases a woman's chances of getting raped & sometimes for the really unlucky women murdered by her partner. Is the chance so high that women should forego relationships with men entirely? No it's rare enough that with proper vetting women choose to take that risk all the time. Same thing for trans women in men's single sex spaces. The vast majority of the time men who claim to be women will be able to use the men's restroom with no issue aside from a bit of awkwardness. Most men are not out of control rage monsters, you'll be fine. (This also depends on where you live and how strong homophobia is there. Homophobia & men attacking trans people often go hand in hand.) I support gay & lesbian rights, because they aren't violating women's boundaries.

It seems that men who claim to be women's fear of men is taken more seriously than women's fear. I fear you, the same way you fear men. Actually my fear has an extra edge to it, because of the risk of pregnancy & abortion rights being removed. Knock on wood, but if god forbid I ever got raped, I may very well be forced to carry the resulting pregnancy to term against my will. That's something a trans women will never ever have to fear or experience. Also men who claim to be women are still on average significantly stronger, heavier and larger than the average woman. I know very well that most men could easily kill me with their bare hands including trans women and I plan my life around this fact. It just takes one man with anger management issues and my life is over. If a woman attacked me at least I have a fighting chance.

Male violence has actually happened to me and most women I know. This isn't the only story I have. He snapped his hands around my throat and slammed me into the wall and I couldn't breathe. No matter how hard I fought it was like trying to move a mountain. I'm only alive because he let go just before I suffocated to death. That's the day I learned just how large the gap between a man's strength and a woman's is. Hormone's aren't magic. They don't make trans women shorter, they reduce strength a little but not enough to close the strength & size gap between them and actual women. If a man attacks you, you still have a fighting chance despite the hormones and I do not. That difference fucking matters. If a transwomen put his hands around my throat like that man I still would not have a fighting chance. The strength difference is too large. We are seeing obvious proof of this as more men who claim to be women participate in women's sports and wipe the field taking 1st place with ease and beating women's records without breaking a sweat, showing off their male strength and other physiological advantages

3rd spaces and taking measures to reduce male violence is the only option that I see that is fair to women. Nature isn't fair and biology puts women at a disadvantage against men physically and reproductively, hence single sex spaces and allowing women to ask for female doctors, pat downs, caregivers, roommates etc. Women have different needs, because our bodies are built differently. Women need equity and not equality. Single sex spaces are essential for women's equity in society.

If trans activists fought for their own spaces, and protections without stepping on women's rights I would support them, much in the same way I support taking measures to protect gay men from male violence, but as the movement stands now I am against transgenderism. I am not a sacrificial lamb or a human shield for men who claim to be women. I'm not strong enough to even defend myself. If men actually listened to women male violence wouldn't be a problem. Women can't solve men who claim to be women's problems. If we could, we would've ended male violence and rape a long time ago. This is something men have to sort amongst themselves. Women have been trying for 1000s of years with scant success.

This is the state of the world right now: https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures

Women already have a herculean fight on our hands world wide. We don't have the resources or energy to fight your fights for you. Expecting women to do the dirty work for you is just the same old misogyny, where women are expected to bend over backwards for men at their own movement's expense. Women should absolutely be able to focus exclusively on our needs and our rights without catering to men no matter how they may personally identify.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a brilliant response.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

The actual main finding of that study seems to be that we lack any kind of good data source especially given that trans questions were removed from the census:

Dinno suggests that the most surprising finding, that transgender people overall do not face greater homicide risk than do cisgender people, is because of transgender people becoming adept at strategies to reduce potential harms, such as avoiding certain neighborhoods or being cautious around new people. Although research has found that many transgender people do employ these strategies that limit their freedoms in favor of safety, a claim that transgender people are successfully avoiding their own murders remains dubious. Because of the uncertain nature of both the numerator and denominator in these relative risk calculations, a far more parsimonious explanation would be that these estimates have substantial limitations and that better data and further research are needed to understand the relative risk of homicide for transgender and cisgender people in the United States. In that regard, Dinno’s work cannot provide a definitive answer to the “transgender murder rate” but instead provides a compelling argument for the advancement of more comprehensive data collection strategies to improve the safety of transgender people.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As I've stated before, we need more data. Trans activist need to knock off suppressing research that they don't like. They should also be more conservative in their claims of oppression when they don't have solid data to back them up.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I didn’t say murdered. I said attacked.

Gay men, even effeminate ones are both more capable of protecting themselves and more socially acceptable than trans women.

No it's rare enough that with proper vetting women choose to take that risk all the time. Same thing for trans women in men's single sex spaces. The vast majority of the time men who claim to be women will be able to use the men's restroom with no issue aside from a bit of awkwardness. Most men are not out of control rage monsters, you'll be fine. (This also depends on where you live and how strong homophobia is there. Homophobia & men attacking trans people often go hand in hand.) I support gay & lesbian rights, because they aren't violating women's boundaries.

No, we won’t be fine. That’s my point, I personally was attacked within my first year of transition. If I used men’s spaces again it would certainly happen again. And I can’t protect myself from an attack by men. And noone would help. I don’t know if you are willfully ignoring the danger we face or just live in one of the few places trans people are relatively safe or accepted.

Also (trans women) are still on average significantly stronger, heavier and larger than the average woman.

And smaller and weaker than men.

I know very well that most men could easily kill me with their bare hands ... and I plan my life around this fact.

It’s the same for me. Going into men’s spaces is asking to be attacked and t the only thing stopping a man from killing me is his decision not to. Remember trans panic is an admissible murder defense in 48 states.

It just takes one man with anger management issues and my life is over.

Same for us. That’s what I am saying.

They don't make trans women shorter

This is not true. Many trans women lose several inches in hieght. I lost 2 inches myself.

they reduce strength a little but not enough to close the strength & size gap between them and actual women

My strength is literally half what it was and I go to the gym with women substantially stronger than me. This gap isn’t what you think it is.

If a man attacks you, you still have a fighting chance despite the hormones and I do not.

No, I don’t. Despite exercising literally seven days a week any average dude could easily overpower me. And I’m well more fit than most trans women. We aren’t a match for men. Not even close.

3rd spaces are my preference but you can’t stop male violence. You can’t make trans women safe with men. It’s impossible to make that situation safe.

Trans women are hated basically universally by cis het men and growingly by gay ones. We have almost no material resources and are moving backwards on rights daily. Acting like we can somehow stop men from hurting us is absolutely laughable. The only chance for safety is to stay away from men.

If trans activists fought for their own spaces, and protections without stepping on women's rights I would support them

What do you think this looks like exactly? You are advocating to be able to ban trans women from literally anything up to an including social clubs. And how do separate spaces get funded? You would need a mandate. Which is pretty impossible given state’s are literally in the process of trying to ban medical transition. What is acceptable trans rights to you? What does it look like?

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I seriously doubt your claim to losing two inches in height. If you can find research and studies on height loss as a result of hormone therapy I am very interested, because if that is true that is a fascinating phenomenon. You will still be stronger, bigger and heavier than the average woman and because of that extra strength you still have a better shot at physically defending yourself than women do. My point still stands. Also being personally attacked once in your life does not equal trans women are not safe using men's restrooms/locker rooms the vast majority of the time. That's why we need studies and stats, so we can actually roughly know how common it actually is. Tis a pity many trans rights activists are actively suppressing research that could help them.

Just this year I was followed by a man threatening to kill me while walking. I don't cry it's not safe to walk anymore or demand armed guards at all times. I know full well especially egregious incidents with unhinged men like that are fortunately rare, so I don't get histrionic saying it's not safe for women to walk. It is safe to walk in my neighborhood the vast majority of the time. Every now & again men will threaten me when I go out in public. That's life for women. Once every few years there is a really bad incident that really shakes me up, but that doesn't stop me. I keep going out, because I refuse to allow the violent pricks in the world to prevent me from participating in public life. I figuratively give them the middle finger by being brave and going out and living my life. You can too. You can improve men's acceptance of trans women by being brave and continuing to use the men's room. Women fought tooth and nail and went through hell to finally be able to go to college, to vote, to be able to divorce, to have access to birth control, to have a goddamn credit card in their own name and participate in the workforce. Things can get better, men can get better, but you have to be the change you want to see.

Acceptable Trans Rights that don't put the fucking boot right back on women's necks:

Reasonable accommodations like 3rd spaces.

Access to affordable mental & physical healthcare (This includes proper safeguarding to prevent as much as possible the tragedy of detransitioners who made catastrophic permanent changes to their bodies that will negatively affect them for the rest of their lives)

Physical transition allowed for adults. Key word adults who must be fully aware of the lifelong consequences of physical transition, before signing up for the hormones & the surgery if they so choose. Your body, your choice.

Freedom of association is important. In private groups, and events people should be allowed to exclude whoever they please. If a woman wants to have a women only knitting group she should absolutely have a right to. Some women's groups will include trans women, some will not. If you respect women as full human beings you can respect their agency in this matter. Trans women also should have the right to have transwomen only hobby groups and meetups, because they are the only people who know what it is like to be trans and sometimes it's just nice to hang out with people like you who understand where you are coming from. (I hope this helps you understand why women might want to hang out with just other women from time to time and I can assure you I have interacted with trans women in real life and it is completely different from interacting with other women. Their male socialization was really obvious and I couldn't let my guard down the same way I do around other women. A transwomen's presence completely destroys the vibe of women only spaces and social interactions. They are unaware of it, because they aren't women and will never truly know what women's only spaces are actually like without men present.) It's a bit histrionic to say I'm suggesting banning trans women from literally anything. I just believe women should have just as much a right to freedom of association as anyone else in their private life.

Events like Mitchfest should be able to exist, for women only. If transwomen want a similar event they can make one for themselves without barging in on women's private events and groups. That's what normal mentally healthy people do. If I walk into a social gathering that is strictly for pregnant women I don't throw a fit and send death and rape threats and say they're exclusionary monsters for kicking me out, because I don't qualify for the base requirements to participate in that private social gathering. I just shrug my shoulders and say I don't qualify for that particular group and join one that I do fit the criteria for. It's absurdly entitled to demand that people include you in their private events and hobby groups regardless if your presence even makes sense there.

As for pat downs, doctors, nurses and caregivers. People should have freedom to request services from the same sex in these situations. It is violating to be pat down or physically examined in intimate areas by a member of the opposite sex for many people. Remember everyone's dignity and privacy should be respected in society. Your personal belief in your gender identity does not trump their rights. If you are a TSA agent and male and insist on being allowed to pat down women you are no different from any other creepy man who violates women's boundaries. In that scenario you are the boot.

Roommate situations and dating also include freedom of association. Many women prefer to have only women as roommates for safety reasons. If you lie and present yourself as a biological woman and fail to inform them of your trans status you are violating their boundaries. In dating sex matters. Many people are not interested in dating someone who is the same sex no matter how they personally identify. Smokers being excluded from someone's roommate options isn't a civil rights issue. Same for trans people being excluded, because of their sex. It's not because you are trans that you are excluded in these areas. It is because you are male. Also women's sports should be strictly for women, but I hope that's a no brainer.

Transwomen should only be banned from women's single sex spaces and not be allowed to force themselves on people who do not want them in their private gatherings or professionally when a person's sex really matters such as caregiving, doctors and TSA pat downs. That's it. You get treated the same as any other man. You get the same rights as any other man. I'm arguing that you should not be given any special privileges above other men, because deep down inside you believe you are a woman.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I seriously doubt your claim to losing two inches in height.

Okay, I guess what’s the point in talking if you won’t even take my personal experiences at face value?

But no I couldn’t find any formal research on adult hieght only adolescent. Lots of anecdotal stories but nothing formal.

You will still be stronger, bigger and heavier than the average woman and because of that extra strength you still have a better shot at physically defending yourself than women do.

Still smaller and weaker than men. We can’t fight men any more than you can. That’s the relevant comparison when we are talking about danger from men. Any average dude on the street could kill me if he wanted to and I couldn’t stop him.

You can improve men's acceptance of trans women by being brave and continuing to use the men's room. Women fought tooth and nail and went through hell to finally be able to go to college, to vote, to be able to divorce, to have access to birth control, to have a goddamn credit card in their own name and participate in the workforce. Things can get better, men can get better, but you have to be the change you want to see.

No it can’t. Men will always be be monsters to us in high enough numbers we can’t be made safe in men’s spaces. So many of us tried. So many did exactly what I did of using men’s spaces until men made a point to show us how unwelcome we are through violence. I spent a long time after that literally only going to work, home, or places that I knew had usable neutral restrooms( a key distinction since many places had ones you had to request and could be denied access to on the basis that they are for families with children). The first time I used a women’s room I was literally pulled into it by a female friend.

Leaving aside the medical access question.

In what way is your stance not it’s okay to ban trans women from anything? The structure you set up seems to be exactly that any woman setting up anything can ban trans women including corporate things like festivals. Where’s the line? Technically that freedom of association has come into play in business discrimination cases, so can a pizza shop or grocery store van trans women? If not on what basis is that different than a festival?

I don’t understand why Trans women would want trans women only groups or events. I don’t see a benefit because my sense of kinship is with all women not trans women separately.

That being said do we have the right to deny being searched or cared for by cis men? Can I demand a trans women to search me if I’m arrested? I am just a vulnerable and violated by the touch of a man. I would guess that answer is no and if so why doesn’t our dignity and privacy matter as much as yours?

I’m not taking up dating as an issue. ( it’s not relevant to me so I don’t really have an opinion on it). I don’t think there’s a way to have trans women participate in sports at all but that’s a separate conversation.

The roommate issue raises a lot of housing discrimination warning bells to me. I’m not saying a like shared room dorm style, that I get, but where’s the line? A duplex with just a shared yard and separate lockable doors? Choosing to rent to us a unit in an apartment complex you own?

You get treated the same as any other man. You get the same rights as any other man. I'm arguing that you should not be given any special privileges above other men, because deep down inside you believe you are a woman.

The problem is we aren’t men. We are physically weaker and more vulnerable. We are more hated. We are in average poorer and with less access to material wealth or benefits. You brought up the beed for equity rather than equality. The same applies here. We are less than men and treating us the same isn’t equitable.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You aren't less than men. Transwomen are transwomen and that's okay. There is nothing inherently wrong with being male. From my perspective it's a neutral descriptor. You are person who happens to be male. I am a person who happens to be female. But your experiences are not the same as mine. You will only have a male's perspective on womanhood, you will never experience womanhood, just a man's idea of what it is to be a woman and that's okay. This applies in the reverse, I will never know what it is like to exist in a male body.

While I do believe your personal experiences, that doesn't mean they are universal. There are plenty of receipts for the harassment of women and women being assaulted in locker rooms and restrooms especially unisex ones, I haven't seen convincing evidence for transwomen. I am all for gathering more data so we have a more accurate picture of how bad the problem is especially let's say in the United specifically and what can be done to fix it. That transwoman I knew in real life continued using the men's room without incident and he was very androgynous so when I first met him I just thought he was a woman with manly features, but his male socialization gave the game away. He did not psychologically pass at all. I was still polite to him used his preferred pronouns and what not, but he was definitely not a woman and interacting with him was just like interacting with any other man, when I found out for sure he was trans it all made sense. Never once in my life have I met an actual women who behaved exactly like a man. Transwomen though, yes.

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1594/freedom-of-association

For freedom of association we have a clear distinction between public and private life. Public services, businesses and governments should not discriminate. For example someone who owns and rents apartments should not be able to discriminate against renters because they are trans.

But people should have the right to choose who their roommates are in their private lives. It doesn't matter if you disagree with their criteria, their agency matters and no one should be forced to shared the same house/living situation with someone they do not want to share it with. Some women are comfortable with male roommates, some are not and that is okay. Many non smokers do not want to live with smokers. Some quiet people do not want to be roommates with talkative people. I could go on. That's why people often meet to see if they would be compatible as roommates before allowing the new person to sign the lease and move in. I believe it is an egregious overreach when trans rights activists attempt to destroy this fundamental right of association in people's private lives.

A big sticking point is that I do not believe your claim that you are a woman. Not understanding why women would want women only spaces in their private lives only confirms to me that you do not understand what it is actually like to be a woman. Most men just do not get it. Hence why every blue moon I really enjoy being in women only spaces.

As for being able to request opposite sex services let's use the TSA pat down as an example. It's standard for women to pat down women and men to pat down men. This is a compromise, because most women are not okay with being patted down by a man and many if not most women doing the pat downs would not be okay with patting down men. In this scenario sex matters, so I would say it is not okay to force a female TSA agent to pat down a male body. You should be free to request it, but if there are no women on staff who are comfortable with patting down a male body they should not be forced by the law to do so. (Ideally we wouldn't have these pat downs, but that is another discussion.)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You aren't less than men.

Socially, physically, and economically we are. We are less and ignoring that is the problem. Treating us like men leaves us short on every measure in life.

You know what, it doesn’t matter. You believe we are some eternal other who are just men who should be treated as such and won’t even acknowledge that we are unsafe with men. If you can’t even acknowledge that we are unsafe around men I don’t know if there’s anywhere to go.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have already acknowledged that effeminate men can be attacked and bullied particularly by homophobic men. Reading comprehension is a handy skill to have. Best of luck and I wish you a good life, just please respect women's boundaries and their agency in their private lives.