QT: Do women have a right to boundaries?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

Absolutely women deserve that. Everything you explained makes complete sense. It's hard to understand why women shouldn't have a right to boundaries. This answer seems so intuitive, it feels weird to think about why it need be asked, but I understand there really is pushback and argument against it, most of the logic revolving around identity and gender identity.

I don't personally care how any individual man identifies, I just don't want to undress in the same room as him or be patted down by him, or have intimate medical care done by him, or have women's fair competitive sports destroyed by a man who has a huge biological advantage over women in sports, or tricked into having a male roommate when I did not consent to a unisex roommate situation, or be forced to accommodate him in women only hobby groups, women only dating apps. I learned the hard way that a far far too high percentage of men are dangerous, the last thing I want is to be in a private space alone with a man who is a stranger or increase the odds of being sexually harassed by male doctors, TSA agents, nurses, caregivers, prison guards etc.

Given what I believe, as a trans person who is biologically male I feel conflicted because I don't know what to necessarily do as an alternative in some scenarios other than to plan and prepare in advance to avoid said scenarios altogether. The boundaries that I want to set for myself are the same ones you want for the same reasons that you want them. To be respectful of the boundaries of women yet maintain my own boundaries, I suppose there are some sacrifices I have to make by just not participating in certain aspects and functions of society, like avoiding the use of sex-segregated public facilities or activities altogether, and avoiding working in certain professions. I'd prefer to not have to disclose my biological sex and history for my own peace, so total avoidance of said scenarios seems like the only way to respect women's boundaries as described in the OP while also maintaining my own.

Don't come at me with men who claim to be women aren't safe in men's restrooms, & locker rooms. The vast majority of men would just give them a double take and ignore them. Men are perfectly safe using the men's room no matter how they may personally identify.

Most males are probably perfectly safe using the men's room, but since the boundaries I feel I need to set for myself are the same ones for the same reasons as in the OP (concerns of safety), then that's just not an option for me. Again, I suppose planning to avoid finding myself faced with such decisions is the only way to respect the boundaries of women as well as my own.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think third spaces would work pretty well. Small business already have single room restrooms a lot of the time. We can just make those unisex. Many larger businesses, gyms, grocery stores & swimming pools mostly already have unisex family restrooms & changing rooms. We can just require all business to provide this third option in a way that doesn't put too much of a financial burden on them.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree, I think it's probably the best option concerning restrooms. The additional cost of providing said spaces is frequently mentioned when this option is brought up, I'm not sure how to ensure there isn't too much of a financial burden as much as I like the idea.

There is a rest stop I stumbled on in Nebraska where the women's and men's rooms are split on either side of the store on the inside, and they're essentially single stall rooms lined up in rows on either side, and the toilets have heated seats and bidets--it's extravagant and ridiculously lavish for an average-looking rest stop, so maybe it wouldn't be totally unrealistic to implement that model everywhere (I wish!😂)

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish in the United States at least that there was a stronger push for general public restrooms provided by the state, so it could help provide 3rd spaces without burdening small businesses and it would also provide more restrooms in places where there aren't many or you have to be a paying customer to use one. As a person with a small bladder this would change my life and help trans people too. Win win. Let's shorten that urinary leash for everyone. That rest stop in Nebraska sounds amazing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

They don’t care about our safety

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

It would be nice to have some understanding, but that's not something we should expect or feel owed. It's not their problem, it's ours, they have every right to care as much or as little as they want.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I can only speak for myself, but I tend to think that in the past, women didn’t care about sharing some spaces with TW. I still don’t personally care about bathrooms being shared with TW, though I understand that some women do care and I feel like it’s better to support females in this issue than TW, simply because my being okay with something doesn’t mean that I should support making other females feel uncomfortable and unsafe in female spaces, if that makes sense.

I think the issue is that it feels like if we compromise on anything, if we extend any kindness, be it pronouns or sharing spaces, then more is demanded of us from TW (obligatory not all). So for me, it’s a combination of not wanting to dismiss concerns of other females and fearing that if I submit to even simple, easy requests, more is going to be taken. We used pronouns and shared bathrooms, and now girls and women can’t even participate in female sports without having to compete against males- so they lose out on winning and on scholarships even, and we get vilified for using accurate language to describe our bodies and ourselves. We get told by males what it means to be female and a woman, like- the rhetoric that is going around today is a huge part of why I personally have issues. If TW could just be TW and respect the differences between us and respect boundaries, I would have no issue

All this to say, I don’t think it’s that we don’t understand, it’s that we can’t afford to let our understanding of your plight matter more than our rights.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The way you're articulating that makes sense looking at the bigger picture and implications of concession, especially in light of what has been happening in recent history with women and girls losing rights in order to accommodate TW demands. That's fair, and I appreciate your explanation if at least to know your heart is in the right place and you're doing what you believe is right, thank you for that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for not immediately dismissing it. I’m glad you’re here on the sub.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well then fucking ditto.