QT: Why are gendered behavioural patterns typically sex-congruent (or rather concordant with their respective gendered socialisation) in trans people?

submitted 3 years ago by SnowAssMan from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 3 years ago (4 children)

I agree with everything you said for evidence, but I don't understand how your conclusion is that gender is cultural. Wouldn't that indicate that gender patterns are biological, because they are consistent with the birth sex of an individual as opposed to how they identify?

I believe the evidence used for the 'trans women are women' argument is that trans women have brain patterns similar to cis women. However this nature study suggests that these difference are based on sexual orientation independent of gender identity, that is, a trans woman attracted to men will have brain structural differences to a heterosexual cis woman, but these differences are also seen in homosexual males. Meanwhile a female attracted trans woman will have structures congruent with a heterosexual cis male. There is, however, a different area of the brain that is different from heterosexual or homosexual cis people, and that is a region "processing the perception of self and body ownership".

Meanwhile this study suggests that certain aspects of gendered play in childhood are biological as they are seen in monkeys with no human socialization. While one could argue that the monkeys also have culture that shapes this difference, it seems odd that the sex differences aren't found to go another way, if it is truly culturally arbitrary.

Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization. We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun - 3 years ago (0 children)

An example of what I'm talking about when I say gendered socialisation:

"A study of infants aged 13 months found that when boys demand attention - by behaving aggressively, or crying, whining or screaming - they tended to get it. By contrast, adults tended to respond to girls only when they used language, gestures, or gentle touches; girls who used attention-seeking techniques were likely ignored. There was little difference in the communicative patterns at the start of the study, but by the age of two, the girls have become more talkative and boys more assertive in their communicative techniques"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_gender#Gender_and_socialization

The gendered socialisation that trans people receive is no different from anyone else, therefore their gender identity cannot be mismatched. Their self identification cannot be described as a 'gender identity', it's a preferred sex.

Sex isn't the cause, but the catalyst, which is what accounts for the correlations in behaviour. Sex-specific socialisation is the cause of gendered behaviour trends.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 3 years ago (2 children)

Wouldn't that indicate that gender patterns are biological, because they are consistent with the birth sex of an individual as opposed to how they identify?

The fact that people behave in accordance with their upbringing even when taking opposite sex hormones does not go in favour of brains being the way they are from the start. Bioessentialism works great to keep the dynamics in power by shrugging and saying that's just what the sexes were programmed to do (alongside other groups like race) and you should stop reaching for it at every opportunity.

a trans woman attracted to men will have brain structural differences to a heterosexual cis woman

Uggh when will people understand that "brain structural differences" is meaningless? The brain changes structure literally throughout our lives! People who listen to heavy metal have different brains from those who listen to classical music. Saying that the brains are changed by something does NOT mean the brain evolved to like heavy metal or classical music.

[+][deleted] 3 years ago (1 child)

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[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 3 years ago (0 children)

I don't care about dynamics of power

Riiiiight. It's totally never about any kind of hierarchical system when people fight to uphold the hierarchical system that just so happens to put white men on top. It's all about FACTS&LOGIC!

I care about the truth

Right. The truth that just so happens to uphold the hierarchical system because look, it's there! It exists! And if it exists now, then we know it has to exist, it's natural. Women and black people are just naturally dumber because after being stomped on and pushed to the bottom for centuries, that's just what nature intended, don't argue with facts and logic.

People are not just behaving in accordance with their upbringing, they are acting in accordance to their biological sex and their sexual orientation

White people are also behaving in accordance with racism. Guess they all have racism brain parts, then.

Brain structural differences are not meaningless

Since you're playing the idiot card, they are meaningless in the sense that I already explained: as a way of upholding supremacist ideologies by arguing that discrimination is a natural product of certain groups inferiority/superiority, rather than vice versa.

That doesn't mean these brains were like this from the start and it was never argued to be that way.

rofl

Also in the same comment: "The existence of GNC lesbians or effeminate gay men who show their personality from a very young age despite a gender-normative environment or at least one in which other gender-conforming siblings are raised suggests to me that some part of their brain, core personality features, etc, was that way from the start."

the idea that this incredibly complex organ has no physiological indicators of how it functions is a bold assertion.

Gee, it's a good thing I never said that and that I literally said that even the type of music you listen to affects your brain differently, and that these brain differences are meaningless precisely because of how malleable the brain is.

this study found that a region "processing the perception of self and body ownership" was found to be different between gynephilic trans women and straight women. An area that deals with self perception and body ownership that just happens to be present in people who often have dysphoria, a rejection of certain body parts, and an identity that doesn't match their body. Meaningless? Ok.

You mean to tell me that men who are trying to convince themselves and others they're women despite all evidence to the contrary have different self-perception than women with a normal grasp on reality? I guess that proves that...uhh, what is that supposed to prove, actually? That the people who listen to classical music have classical-musician-brain-parts in their heads since birth?

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