QT: Why are gendered behavioural patterns typically sex-congruent (or rather concordant with their respective gendered socialisation) in trans people?

submitted by SnowAssMan from (self.GCdebatesQT)

1) Men in prison typically outnumber women in prison, likewise trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in prison. 129 trans-women vs. 32 trans-men:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/848759/hmpps-offender-equalities-2018-19.pdf

2) The female sex, regardless of how they identify, is more likely to report having attempted suicide than the male sex.

General population for comparison: “Females attempt suicide 3x’s as often as males”

https://save.org/about-suicide/suicide-facts/

Vs. when they are trans: “Female to male adolescents reported the highest rate of attempted suicide (50.8%), followed by adolescents who identified as not exclusively male or female (41.8%), male to female adolescents (29.9%)”

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20174218?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token

3) 84% of trans people with HIV are trans-womxyn, likewise men are infected with HIV 5x more often than women, this points to similar sexual practices:

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/gender/transgender/index.htmlhttps://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/statistics

4) Out of the 5 trans candidates that won in the recent US election 100% of them were trans-womxyn, 0% trans-men:

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/amp34567467/election-2020-trans-winners/

5) Male athletes outnumber female ones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_sportspeople

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#Trans_men

Crime, suicide attempts, positions of power etc. trans-womxyn follow the same behavioural patterns as men within a patriarchy & those of trans-men follow women's. I wasn't able to find anything on media representation, but I think we all know trans-womxyn are also overrepresented there too.

Every instance of overlap between trans-womxyn & men, trans-men & women is also 1 less thing trans-womyxn & trans-men have in common with their preferred sex.

These are all things regarding gender, not sex. They are also not random, or cherry-picked. Positions of power & representation in media & in the public sphere in general are the go-to measurements within matrices of domination, especially regarding gender.

This seems to only confirm that gender is culture, it's inculcated, rather than innate. Is there evidence of the reverse: gendered behavioural patterns that are concordant with self-identification?

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree with everything you said for evidence, but I don't understand how your conclusion is that gender is cultural. Wouldn't that indicate that gender patterns are biological, because they are consistent with the birth sex of an individual as opposed to how they identify?

I believe the evidence used for the 'trans women are women' argument is that trans women have brain patterns similar to cis women. However this nature study suggests that these difference are based on sexual orientation independent of gender identity, that is, a trans woman attracted to men will have brain structural differences to a heterosexual cis woman, but these differences are also seen in homosexual males. Meanwhile a female attracted trans woman will have structures congruent with a heterosexual cis male. There is, however, a different area of the brain that is different from heterosexual or homosexual cis people, and that is a region "processing the perception of self and body ownership".

Meanwhile this study suggests that certain aspects of gendered play in childhood are biological as they are seen in monkeys with no human socialization. While one could argue that the monkeys also have culture that shapes this difference, it seems odd that the sex differences aren't found to go another way, if it is truly culturally arbitrary.

Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization. We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

An example of what I'm talking about when I say gendered socialisation:

"A study of infants aged 13 months found that when boys demand attention - by behaving aggressively, or crying, whining or screaming - they tended to get it. By contrast, adults tended to respond to girls only when they used language, gestures, or gentle touches; girls who used attention-seeking techniques were likely ignored. There was little difference in the communicative patterns at the start of the study, but by the age of two, the girls have become more talkative and boys more assertive in their communicative techniques"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_gender#Gender_and_socialization

The gendered socialisation that trans people receive is no different from anyone else, therefore their gender identity cannot be mismatched. Their self identification cannot be described as a 'gender identity', it's a preferred sex.

Sex isn't the cause, but the catalyst, which is what accounts for the correlations in behaviour. Sex-specific socialisation is the cause of gendered behaviour trends.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wouldn't that indicate that gender patterns are biological, because they are consistent with the birth sex of an individual as opposed to how they identify?

The fact that people behave in accordance with their upbringing even when taking opposite sex hormones does not go in favour of brains being the way they are from the start. Bioessentialism works great to keep the dynamics in power by shrugging and saying that's just what the sexes were programmed to do (alongside other groups like race) and you should stop reaching for it at every opportunity.

a trans woman attracted to men will have brain structural differences to a heterosexual cis woman

Uggh when will people understand that "brain structural differences" is meaningless? The brain changes structure literally throughout our lives! People who listen to heavy metal have different brains from those who listen to classical music. Saying that the brains are changed by something does NOT mean the brain evolved to like heavy metal or classical music.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Evolution is the force that has shaped our species. Given that humans are sexually dimorphic in both physiology and behaviour, it would be surprising if the influence of evolutionary biology on human behaviour was determined by gender rather than sex.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

"Biology" is too vague. Trans-womxyn's testosterone is lowered & trans-men's is increased. And yet the trans-womxyn still commit more crimes than trans-men, so doesn't that debunk biology as the cause? What part of biology were you referring to, if not hormones?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

All behaviour is either socially or biologically determined. Sociology's findings typically confirm the discipline's hypothesis, that the vast majority of behaviour is socially determined. People are products of their environment. Culture determines almost everything.

Biology is more of a catalyst. The idea that men should have more representation in everything that exists, whether it's creative or logical, brains or brawn, leader or follower, hero or villain, makes no sense from a biological perspective.

One could hypothesise that men's natural strength had them wielding power early on in human history, when physical strength mattered & that we are still reeling from their head start, but that would be ignoring the few cultures where men aren't the dominant ones. There is nothing genetic you can point to that makes these men different.

In the end, it always comes down to culture. The origins of culture are varied, but biology doesn't appear to play a great role there.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Appetite for risk seems to be the key factor, and this is sexually dimorphic on average. Everything from average speed of Uber drivers to psychological tests of reactions to smears on towelling. While there is great individual variation, females seem to favour survival (low-risk strategy) while males favour status and are willing to take life-threatening risks to get it. Select for the top extreme in any field and it is full of successful risk-taking males. The unsuccessful risk-taking males are dead or in prison, for the same reason. Pure evolutionary biology: females have to survive to have offspring, whereas males do not.

[–]Juniperius 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Mothers of crawling infants (~ 6 months of age) overestimate how good their boy babies are likely to be at crawling, and underestimate how good their girl babies are likely to be. When the baby approaches a ramp in experiments, the mother encourages the boy baby to go ahead and risk crawling down it, and holds the girl baby back, saying oh, be careful. This certainly affects likelihood of risk-taking throughout life.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Taking risks is easy when you're not punished at every single opportunity for doing it, and told you're incompetent by virtue of being a certain sex. Favouring status is easy when you can actually get it, instead of the highest position you're given being looking sexually attractive for the opposite sex.

I am not surprised these pressures are ignored by someone claiming to be "nonbinary". Let me guess, male?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

This seems to only confirm that gender is culture, it's inculcated, rather than innate.

I don't follow you. The universal cross cultural pattern of men committing more crime than women means gender is cultural?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

I'm assuming your argument is that if something is cross-cultural it's almost certainly biologically determined. How come even after you chemically castrate the male sex & treat the female sex with these crime-committing hormones it doesn't reverse the gender imbalance trend in crime?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Most cultures are heavy patriarchatic, with very similar power tendencies and views on sex (especially if they are religious), so nothing strange in same patterns.

Only biological reasoning I can think of - is difference in physical strenght and social roles starting from more primitive times, which no longer making any sense, but still practiced.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

So you believe in the blank slate model for gender?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

As soon as it's nature instead of nurture it not gender, but sex. Blank slate theory is the only theory regarding gender. "Biologically determined gender" is oxymoronic.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not sure what you mean?

Are you arguing gender isn't a thing and is entirely sexed behaviours?

A terminology thing?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How is this so difficult for you to understand? Gender is culture. Is culture innate? No. Is it learned? Yes.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But culture is natural to humans. A human without culture is dysfunctional. A human needs a culture to function correctly.

To me in that sense gender is like language. It's cultural but comes to us naturally.

If we raised children socially with robots that did not talk, they would over time develop their own language.

I believe the same is true of gender. If you raised children with sexless robots, gender would emerge, gradually but naturally.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Not completely.

Most of the behaviour are learned from society, but biological differences are adding extra layer on this and making some part of same experience to be seen from different lenses, if it is somehow affected by biological factor.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

But you believe in agp but also think gender norms are societal.

Don't most essentialists think it's a mix?

How do decide what is essential and what is societal? Isn't universality a good measure?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How AGP is related here?

Don't most essentialists think it's a mix?

I don't know.

How do decide what is essential and what is societal?

Studies must be done.

Things like agression are the mix, but caused by society. When you are stronger than some group, but not the strongest, if is often leading to agressive behaviour, and it is happening in all species with social or power hierarchy. And it is not happening in species without hierarchy. So without power hierarchy stronger but weaker than top males would not be agressive to females or less strong males. Humanity shown that we can build not power-based hierarchy, we just don't want to, as "everyone is used to it" and ones who have money and power do not want to lose those.

Isn't universality a good measure?

When talking about overwhelming majority, not when talking about minorities. In society, most items are universally made for right handed - because overwhelming majority of society are right handed.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Things like agression are the mix, but caused by society. When you are stronger than some group, but not the strongest, if is often leading to agressive behaviour, and it is happening in all species with social or power hierarchy. And it is not happening in species without hierarchy. So without power hierarchy stronger but weaker than top males would not be agressive to females or less strong males.

I have wondered about the aggression masculinity strength model.

In that the "dominance model" could purely result from a cultural perception of the physical dimorphism.

However I think it's very unlikely that nature would evolve physical dimorphism without complementary behavioural dimorphism. As if nature is creating gendered differences but offers no behavioural utility for acting on those differences.

Humanity shown that we can build not power-based hierarchy, we just don't want to, as "everyone is used to it" and ones who have money and power do not want to lose those.

I'm not so sure it's as simple as that.

Hierarchy is fairly useful. That's not a justification but it has it's uses.

It's also ubiquitous to a large degree.

I'm not sure what you have in mind as an alternative?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As if nature is creating gendered differences but offers no behavioural utility for acting on those differences.

Even in animals it is happening time to time, when hierarchy is failing and some parts of the species living with different rules - if environment has changed.

I'm not sure what you have in mind as an alternative?

Not power-based hierarchy. I don't think it is possible with all humanity history, but we can at least aim there. With not enforcing gender stereotypes and gender based education from birth time - it should come naturally, not completely gone, but to a big digree after few generations. That will be really hard to achieve as well, but it is not a reason to be aiming there.

I could say "everyone's equality" like communism, but that will be lies, it can't fix anything, only make it worse. We can folow bonobo and love each other (that's a joke).

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I simply don't see men and women giving up masculinity and femininity.

As long as men and women carry on behaving differently, masculinity and femininity will carry on being things.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Isn't universality a good measure?

Absolutely not. By that logic, religion would be a part of human biology (and in fact, it has been argued that it is by some), and as we know from the amount of atheists currently, it's not.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think a lot of religious behaviours are natural. I think they're naturally evolved. Societies without religion still have plenty of features religious ones do. It just manifests differently.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Because gendered behaviour might not be based only on hormones?

It can also be from the influence of hormones on the brain during development in the womb. Which is where I assume sexual orientation is formed.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Got anything to support that supposition?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation

Is it complete? No but there seems to be a lot of evidence.

What's the alternative?

There is no orientation?

Orientation is entirely constructed?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

lol are you just playing dumb? Did you really think I was asking about orientation? Did you forget the subject matter of the post?

I'll ask again, shall I: have you got anything to support the following: "Because gendered behaviour might not be based only on hormones? It can also be from the influence of hormones on the brain during development in the womb"?

A reminder of the context: the male sex's biological predisposition to committing crimes, compared to the female sex.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you accept that masculinity and femininity are linked to attraction to women and attraction to men?

Do you think that relationship is natural?

I think universal cross cultural attributes are evidence. Are you saying they are not?

[–]grixitperson 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

1) Men in prison typically outnumber women in prison, likewise trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in prison.

Why do you say "trans-womxyn", but not "trans-mxen"?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

It's a response to the change to the spelling of 'women' to 'womxn' that some outlet (I forget which one) was trying to push, while leaving 'men' unchanged. The letters XY in 'trans-womxyn' are a reminder of their chromosomes.

Therefore if I did change the spelling of trans-men, it'd have to read: 'trans-mxxn'.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

one

I've seen like 5 differen't ones, and few UK and Canadian organisations too. In same sentence "womxn" but still "men".

[–]grixitperson 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ah.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. The 1st study said "There were 163 transgender prisoners in 2019" "129 prisoners reported their legal gender as male, 32 as female and 2 did not state their legal gender." What does legal gender mean? Gender assigned at birth? Also, "Prisoners who have already transitioned and have a full Gender Recognition Certificate are excluded from this dataset."

  2. This study did say suicide and depression differences between males and females. Maybe they meant anyone who identifies as male/female.

  3. I don't know that one. Certain races also have higher rates of HIV.

  4. There is a thread on Ovarit called Non-Binary Wins Oklahoma Seat. An AFAB non-binary Muslim won an election. "It makes me sad she can't just be a black woman who is also a Muslim." It's much harder for a non-binary person to win an election than a binary person. When trans women win an election, GC complains it's all trans women winning the elections and not trans men. When trans men win an election, it's so sad they can't be female.

  5. Males have more overall muscle mass and less body fat than females.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. lol yes, that's so confusing. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

  2. Did you skip the bit about trans-men & non-binary people (most of whom are members of the female sex) reporting much higher rates of attempted suicide than trans-womxyn?

  3. How is that relevant? I'm pointing out the overlap between trans-womxyn & men. Compare like with like. There is no ethnicity where the female sex has higher rates of HIV than the male one.

  4. "When trans men win an election" – When did this happen?

  5. Yep, that could be part of the reason trans-womxyn athletes outnumber trans-men athletes. it's almost as if the differences between the sexes are significant & consequential

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When trans women win an election, GC complains it's all trans women winning the elections and not trans men. When trans men win an election, it's so sad they can't be female.

  1. Male people still benefitting from being male and their male upbringing even when they claim to be the opposite sex, and women having disadvantages even when they claim to be the opposite sex shows how difficult misogyny is to get rid of, even when everyone decides to play-pretend that people are totally the opposite sex because they claim they are. This shows the reality of just how integral misogyny and the patriarchy are to our entire society, as they're present even when people pretend to be all about "gender-fuckery".

  2. We don't like the fact that our society is so patriarchal that women have to think of themselves as male to try and escape it. How effective that escape is has no bearing on this. It only has bearing on #1, i.e. how much it reminds us of the patriarchy's influence. If all women who claim to be men were treated the same as men tomorrow (let's say, if all female trans politicians got the same positions as men do), that would still show that women need to pretend to be men in order not to be treated as subhuman. The fact that even pretending they're male around people who claim to see them as male doesn't work to give them equal treatment is only one facet of that.