QT but all can comment - How would you refute the argument that The phrase "transwomen are women" presupposes that there is a cultural role for women to fill?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (36 children)

I don't think trans women must conform to some arbitrary state of femininity to be women, nor do I care if they conform to femininity so long as they are not saying they are women because of their conformity or claiming women must be feminine to be women (which, unfortunately, seems to be what many trans people are arguing).

Culturally speaking, we live under a societal structure where women are defined by femininity. I'd like to dismantle these gendered associations. Even with the elimination of these gendered associations, I don't think trans people are magically going away. While I do believe much of gender dysphoria is a product of being socialized in a gendered society (especially the aspects related to gender expression), I also support the notion there is a biological basis for the aspects of gender dysphoria related to distress around physiological characteristics.

At the end of the day, a world where a person chooses their gender based on their own sense of identity is far more ideal than the one we currently live in, where females are heavily conditioned in femininity regardless of their identity or their preferred gender expression. This doesn't mean we should have self identification laws (disagree with those absolutely - they should be based on sex), just that a person's gender (socially speaking) should simply be based on what they decide for themselves rather than some arbitrary characteristic of socialization.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

What is gender based on?

I mean, according to your comment it's whatever anyone decides. So if it's different for anyone, how can it be used to describe groups?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Oh no don't get me wrong. Currently, gender is based on cultural and social norms revolving around masculinity and femininity. I'm just saying I don't like that, because it's oppressive, especially to females (and to trans and GNC people for that matter). Making it a matter of self identification (not legally, but socially) would remove this idea of conformity vs non-conformity, gendered associations, and gendered socialization.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

But even in that case, what would it be based on? Would it just be a question of calling yourself something?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

Pretty much

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

And for some reasons, it should be limited only to womanhood and manhood, nothing else?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

No, it would be completely unrestricted based on the wide spectrum of identities such a concept would allow.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

So someone who identifies as a 5 years old should be respected and treated as a 5 years old? Someone who identifies as a doctor should be respected and treated as a doctor? Someone who identifies as a star should be respected and treated as a star? Someone who identifies as a disabled person should be treated and respected as a disabled person?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

We're talking about gender. Age, profession, and disabilities are observable realities (just like sex is).

Gender is not based in observable realities, it is an arbitrary construct designed with oppressive intentions. Therefore, we can redefine it and eventually eliminate it.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Age, professions and disabilities all have similar arbitrary constructs like gender, ageism (younger and older people are useless and not worthy of respect), ableism (people with disablities are less able than able-bodied people) and classism (that includes elevating people who have a certain job and vilifying people who have others).

They are all based on observable realities and social constructs designed to keep down certain categories were created.

Race is another thing that was made in the same way: race is to etnicity what gender is to sex.

Sexual orientation? Same. Do you think that pretending that anyone can be a lesbian has somehow destroyed homophobia? We are now at a point in which lesbians are told that they are bigots if they don' t accept males as sexual partners. Great job!!! Why is it that I am supposed to believe that pretending that men can be women will be more successfull?

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

a person's gender (socially speaking) should simply be based on what they decide for themselves rather than some arbitrary characteristic of socialization.

Do you mean gender presentation or gender identity? If the latter, the "pick and choose" option seems quite harmful given that we're talking about a hierarchy. Men are the dominant, revered sex. Men are the default human. Girls are socialized into a woman-hating culture. Telling a girl who hates female gender stereotypes and gender presentation that her preferences mean she's really a boy or man is regressive, given that the female social and sexual role is considered inferior to the male one.

Instead of strong, aggressive, tough, masculine girls being told that their sex has nothing to do with their personality, they are instead being told that their personality may mean that they aren't really girls, that it's perfectly valid for them to choose to be a boy or man instead. Those of us who are left acknowledging our biological sex are then assumed to have a "cis" identity and are told that we feel aligned with those negative stereotypes.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is well said. I agree. I don't think it would be as much of a problem for people to want to identify as something that wasn't supported by their biology in a world without gender and gender socialization. A lot of the problems are caused by realities of stuff like male violence rates under patriarchy but I'm skeptical that things like self- ID are actually breaking down gender norms.

I agree that trans people would probably still exist as dysphoria and other reasons some people feel "trans" are not just going to vanish although they may lessen if people have less pressure to follow gender roles or better these vanish entirely