QT but all can comment - How would you refute the argument that The phrase "transwomen are women" presupposes that there is a cultural role for women to fill?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Oh no don't get me wrong. Currently, gender is based on cultural and social norms revolving around masculinity and femininity. I'm just saying I don't like that, because it's oppressive, especially to females (and to trans and GNC people for that matter). Making it a matter of self identification (not legally, but socially) would remove this idea of conformity vs non-conformity, gendered associations, and gendered socialization.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

But even in that case, what would it be based on? Would it just be a question of calling yourself something?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

Pretty much

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

And for some reasons, it should be limited only to womanhood and manhood, nothing else?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

No, it would be completely unrestricted based on the wide spectrum of identities such a concept would allow.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

So someone who identifies as a 5 years old should be respected and treated as a 5 years old? Someone who identifies as a doctor should be respected and treated as a doctor? Someone who identifies as a star should be respected and treated as a star? Someone who identifies as a disabled person should be treated and respected as a disabled person?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

We're talking about gender. Age, profession, and disabilities are observable realities (just like sex is).

Gender is not based in observable realities, it is an arbitrary construct designed with oppressive intentions. Therefore, we can redefine it and eventually eliminate it.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Age, professions and disabilities all have similar arbitrary constructs like gender, ageism (younger and older people are useless and not worthy of respect), ableism (people with disablities are less able than able-bodied people) and classism (that includes elevating people who have a certain job and vilifying people who have others).

They are all based on observable realities and social constructs designed to keep down certain categories were created.

Race is another thing that was made in the same way: race is to etnicity what gender is to sex.

Sexual orientation? Same. Do you think that pretending that anyone can be a lesbian has somehow destroyed homophobia? We are now at a point in which lesbians are told that they are bigots if they don' t accept males as sexual partners. Great job!!! Why is it that I am supposed to believe that pretending that men can be women will be more successfull?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (24 children)

Yeah, so eliminate ageism, not age. Eliminate classism, not jobs. Eliminate ableism, not disabilities. Eliminate race, not ethnicity. Similarly, eliminate gender, not sex.

Sexual orientation? Same. Do you think that pretending that anyone can be a lesbian has somehow destroyed homophobia? We are now at a point in which lesbians are told that they are bigots if they don' t accept males as sexual partners. Great job!!! Why is it that I am supposed to believe that pretending that men can be women will be more successfull?

This is a bit off topic, but okay. I already pointed out that sex and therefore sexual orientation is not what I would like to change. Gender is what I would like to change.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Yeah, so eliminate ageism, not age. Eliminate classism, not jobs. Eliminate ableism, not disabilities. Eliminate race, not ethnicity. Similarly, eliminate gender, not sex.

Which I completely agree with. But how do you plan to do it? Because right now, the plan TRAs are pretending to have is that if we respect gender as a sacred thing, it will somehow go away. Explain to me the logic of it or give me your alternative plan to reach that point.

I already pointed out that sex and therefore sexual orientation is not what I would like to change.

The point I am making is that the plan you seem to have is that everyone should be able to call themselves whatever they want because somehow this will lead to the destruction of the thing they identify as. Right now, however, we are there, in which we have, for example, dudes in a relationship calling themselves lesbians and being validated instead of being attacked for sexism, homophobia and appropriation. Because identification is seen as something nobody should criticize.

And yet, that "brilliant" plan led us to have female-only attracted females being called fetishists and bigots for their sexual orientation. Because it' s not working to destroy it, it not only is supporting gender, it crucifies the people who don' t respect the same bullshit and don' t play along with it.

So, once again, what is the plan?