Debate a "leftist"

submitted by DoubleReverse from (self.debatealtright)

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[–]DoubleReverse[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

"We are the posterity that America was built for"

So is the rest of America.

"What I build for my children and grandchildren, I intend for them to keep."

And if a single group of grandchildren tried to hoard your entire legacy, you'd consider that immoral and unacceptable.

"Any attempt to create a White community will run afoul of "anti-discrimination laws"

Only if you try to forcibly segregate an area. If the segregation was consensual, you wouldn't have to resettle or ban black people because they would leave on their own.

"Nor does anyone have the right to persecute us, dispossess us, or destroy us as a people."

I never said they do.

""This is a hostile takeover."

Crime is already illegal. Culpability rests with the culprit, not their skin color.

"Oppression, dispossession, iconoclasm, and genocide are reprehensible regardless."

You say that, but you're still advocating for racial segregation.

"We all have a right to exist. Why don't Whites?"

We do. You can live your whole life as a white person and marry a beautiful white woman and have a big white family and nobody is going to stop you. What you can't do is persecute other people.

[–]frodo-baggins 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

So is the rest of America.

Does "the rest of America" to you include the rest of the entire world, who apparently have the right to come to America (and all White countries) with 1 million + people per year?

And if a single group of grandchildren tried to hoard your entire legacy, you'd consider that immoral and unacceptable.

Are the Uyghurs and Tibetans trying to "hoard their legacy" from the Han? Is that a bad thing, for them to wish for their own survival as a people?

Only if you try to forcibly segregate an area. If the segregation was consensual, you wouldn't have to resettle or ban black people because they would leave on their own.

Let's put this into a real world example: Orania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania%2C_Northern_Cape

Do you consider that to be forcible, or consensual?

If White people funded, built and maintained a town all on their own, with our own labor and our own funding, are we within our rights to say, this is for our people and you can't move here?

I would say that is perfectly acceptable for Black people, Latinos, Asians, or anyone else to do the same.

What is your opinion on Israel?

I never said they do.

Ok, glad to hear that. Do you oppose our dispossession, persecution, and iconoclastic destruction? If you do oppose those things, congrats, you're alt right.

"Oppression, dispossession, iconoclasm, and genocide are reprehensible regardless."

You say that, but you're still advocating for racial segregation.

Freedom of association, and voluntary/intentional communities such as Orania avoid all problems we have been discussing. It is not oppression (What blacks are oppressed in an all-White town? What Whites are oppressed in an all-Black town?), it is not iconoclasm (no one is being conquered, statues or monuments should be taken down in the new community), it is not dispossession (as long as its built in an already homogeneous place), nor is it destruction (the opposite- it is preservation).

You call it racial segregation, which we can make semantic arguments of whether it is or not. I would say it is not forced, it just allows people to segregate themselves if they wish to, by moving to intentional communities. This is very different from Jim Crow, which I do not advocate for.

We do. You can live your whole life as a white person and marry a beautiful white woman and have a big white family and nobody is going to stop you. What you can't do is persecute other people.

What if I want to live in a safe, homogeneous community that is not intent on demonizing and destroying my culture? What if I want monuments to my people to survive in just one small place in the world? What if I don't want to be harassed or attacked in the streets for my race, and then prosecuted for self defense? What if I don't want to be at the mercy of any minority who can pull our their phone, lie about me, attack me and my property on video, and then get off scot free while I get fired and prosecuted?

The fact that White marriage is still legal (for now- BLM has been speaking of "dismantling the white nuclear family") does not do much to support your case. Jews still got married under the Nazis, Greeks got married under the Turks, and Ukrainians still got married under Stalin.

[–]DoubleReverse[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

"Does "the rest of America" to you include the rest of the entire world"

People with American citizenship

"Are the Uyghurs and Tibetans trying to "hoard their legacy" from the Han? Is that a bad thing, for them to wish for their own survival as a people?"

Uyghurs and Tibetans aren't trying to claim that people with a certain genetic background should have less rights.

"Do you consider that to be forcible, or consensual?"

Are non-afrikaans people allowed to make use of public resources located inside Orania? If a non-afrikaans family owned a plot of land inside Orania, would they be allowed to live on it? If the answer to either of those questions is no, that's forcible segregation and would not fly in America.

"If White people funded, built and maintained a town all on their own, with our own labor and our own funding, are we within our rights to say, this is for our people and you can't move here?"

No, not unless it is your own private land. Things are built by people, not skin colors, and public property is publicly owned anyway.

"Freedom of association, and voluntary/intentional communities such as Orania avoid all problems we have been discussing."

You're persecuting the people who would otherwise be able to make use of that land and resources.

"I would say it is not forced"

If you didn't have to force it, it would happen naturally.

"This is very different from Jim Crow, which I do not advocate for."

No, it really isn't.

"What if I want to live in a safe, homogeneous community that is not intent on demonizing and destroying my culture?"

You can go anywhere in the country that you want to go. To deny that right to others would be persecution. If somebody tries to victimize you you have the right to defend yourself proportionally, but being afraid of things like skin colors and religions is your own problem and nobody else's.

[–]frodo-baggins 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

People with American citizenship

Ok, cool, lets stop mass immigration today. If you're a civnat as you're implying, you should be totally against mass immigration. Replacement continues to be a problem even if you expand your group that much.

And let me tell you, nonwhites do not consider you to be part of their ingroup, American citizens or not.

Uyghurs and Tibetans aren't trying to claim that people with a certain genetic background should have less rights.

To their own land? Tibetans want independence dude... They want to end the Great Replacement by the Han.

Are non-afrikaans people allowed to make use of public resources located inside Orania? If a non-afrikaans family owned a plot of land inside Orania, would they be allowed to live on it? If the answer to either of those questions is no, that's forcible segregation and would not fly in America. No, not unless it is your own private land. Things are built by people, not skin colors, and public property is publicly owned anyway.

It is on private land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania%2C_Northern_Cape#Legal_framework

The town is entirely made up of Afrikaners, and only Afrikaners are allowed to buy land and join the town. The town was also built entirely by Afrikaners, funded by Afrikaners, and is the safest place for Afrikaners in the very dangerous country of South Africa.

How can you possibly say that is oppressive?

The only way you can think that, is if you believe that nonwhites have an inherent right to take over any and every White community in existence. This is a blatantly anti-White double standard.

I know you don't believe Whites have the inherent right to take over any nonwhite community. That would be an atrocity! Colonialism! Or at the most polite, gentrification! Definitely racism and oppression. And when the Han Chinese do it to the Tibetans and Uyghurs, it is rightly called genocide.

You're persecuting the people who would otherwise be able to make use of that land and resources.

Are you serious? Nonwhites have an inherent right to all the land and resources of Whites?

Are the Tibetans and Uyghurs trying to persecute the Han, who have an inherent right to their land and resources?

I'm going to keep pushing home this comparison, because it is very accurate. Mass immigration and mass replacement are terrible acts that are normally imposed on the conquered people, following war. We are the first people to impose such destruction onto ourself.

If you didn't have to force it, it would happen naturally.

What do you think White flight is? There are many, MANY people who want to live among people like themselves, and are not allowed to because of our anti-White government and society.

What is your opinion on bussing, and other measures of forced integration?

No, it really isn't.

Do you know what Jim Crow was? Orania is extremely different.

You can go anywhere in the country that you want to go.

No, I can't. Good luck getting Japanese, Vietnamese, or Hungarian citizenship.

That is not an infringement on my rights. Yes, I would be much better off if I were Hungarian, Japanese, or Vietnamese. But I am not, and that does not give me the right to claim what is theirs.

To deny that right to others would be persecution.

No, it's not. I have no right to Japan, a country neither I nor my ancestors took any part in building. It is a great, prosperous, safe, and free country, and I still have no right to it.

If somebody tries to victimize you you have the right to defend yourself proportionally,

Do I?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZhdMcrBuDU

She is being charged with felony assault, which carries a sentence of 4 years in prison. By the way, she is pregnant.

Self defense will land you some hefty felony charges. And if you call the cops, YOU will be in charged for calling the police on a Black person.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/6/amy-cooper-charged-central-park-911-call/

So what are we meant to do? Lay down and take it. Maybe kneel wash their feet while we get mugged.

but being afraid of things like skin colors and religions is your own problem and nobody else's.

Go tell that to BLM. Tell that to the anti-White mobs attacking us in the street. Tell that to the justice system that sends Whites to jail for self defense and lets their attackers go scot free. Tell that to the Rhodesians who were killed by Robert Mugabe, the genocide that was never reported. Tell that to the Afrikaners who are being killed every day in their homes.

No. If we want to survive, we must bind together, not atomize apart into nothingness.

[–]DoubleReverse[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Even if you think you are a victim, you still have no right to deny other people access to public resources.

"So what are we meant to do?"

The same thing you would do if a white person asked you to leash your dog.

"No. If we want to survive, we must bind together, not atomize apart into nothingness."

Exactly, so stop trying to divide the country into opposing racial groups.

[–]frodo-baggins 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

What do you mean public resources? Again, we seek to separate and build our own home from the ground up, just like Orania. I am not asking for a handout or any public resources. Only the right to form such communities.

If by public resources you mean youre worried about people being a public charge, White people should not be your target. We are net contributors to tax revenue (even if you assign all military spending to us, which would be ridiculous but even then we are still contributors) while Blacks and Hispanics take far, far more public assistance than they contribute in taxes.

Furthermore, Orania takes no public services from the surrounding municipalities, pays taxes to the South African state that does nothing for it, and is by far a net contributor to the South African economy.

Under no circumstances could you describe Whites, or White advocates, or explicit White enclaves like Orania, as a public charge or a drain on public resources.

If I were a woman, and a big man came up to me, started making demands, was very aggressive, and said "you're not going to like what Im going to do" I would call the cops too.

Exactly, so stop trying to divide the country into opposing racial groups.

Go to BLM and say that. You will get treated far worse than you would at any predominantly White gathering.

This is only ever said to White people to prevent us from organizing. Never to anyone else.

[–]DoubleReverse[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

"What do you mean public resources?"

Land and institutions that are not the property of a specific person or business.

"Again, we seek to separate and build our own home from the ground up, just like Orania. I am not asking for a handout or any public resources. Only the right to form such communities."

If that's true, you already have that right. If you own the land, you can decide who gets to access it and what you want to build on it. If you don't, then you don't. Nor should you.

"White people should not be your target."

White people have never been my target.

"This is only ever said to White people to prevent us from organizing. Never to anyone else."

It's mostly said to the alt right because you're mostly the only ones advocating racial persecution.

[–]frodo-baggins 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Land and institutions that are not the property of a specific person or business.

So, if we buy the land, and build our own institutions, what is your problem?

If that's true, you already have that right. If you own the land, you can decide who gets to access it and what you want to build on it. If you don't, then you don't. Nor should you.

No, we don't. If we tried to establish Orania in America, it would immediately be prosecuted for refusing to sell a stake to the first non-Afrikaner who tried to buy a stake.

And the anti-Whites definitely would have someone do that- in order to set up a lawsuit to destroy the project.

It's mostly said to the alt right because you're mostly the only ones advocating racial persecution.

Bruh. There are literally anti-White hate mobs attacking us in the streets. Any White who speaks out is immediately fired and paraded around social media as the next object of hate. If you're White and you defend yourself from attack, you will get felony charges. If you're White and call the cops to protect you, you will get charged, not your attacker. If the cops come at all.

That's not even getting to what BLM is demanding. Reparations (mass theft) and "land reform" (literally how genocide was carried out in Rhodesia and South Africa). Truly evil.

Meanwhile, I'm advocating for White people to be allowed to go to undeveloped land (buy it), build our own place from scratch, and not let in the people who are persecuting us.

I'm definitely the one advocating persecution. /s

[–]DoubleReverse[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

"So, if we buy the land, and build our own institutions, what is your problem?"

None. People do that all the time, it's called a commune. I'm telling you you can't deny people access to public resources on the basis of skin color or any other aspect of their identity.

"No, we don't. If we tried to establish Orania in America, it would immediately be prosecuted for refusing to sell a stake to the first non-Afrikaner who tried to buy a stake."

Lol, that's hilarious, your eternal victimhood narrative is self-defeating!

As far as your victimhood goes, opposition to racism is not opposition to white people. If you don't want to be treated like a scumbag, then stop acting like a scumbag.

[–]frodo-baggins 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I don't think you understand what the words "self-defeating" mean.

So let me get this straight- No, you don't have any problem with us creating our own community. However, you find it hilarious that we will immediately be prosecuted for attempting to do so?