How much do we owe to strangers?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Is it harassment or not? Please just this once answer the questions I ask you? Just one time gb I’m begging you.

Uhh no changing rooms and toilets are not freely open to the public. It is absolutely not a legal or social norm for a man to waltz into the womens chNging rooms. It’s an offence in many places specifically due to the things males do on those spaces. Cameras, masturbation, spying. It is mathematically proven that males do this far more than females do.

So you’re saying that women have absolutely no right whatsoever to express discomfort, fear, or a desire for privacy unless they are inside their own homes? Or can we only speak up once a violation of one of those has already occurred?

Is any safeguarding allowed other than not going past the letterbox? Can we for example, cross to the other side of the street from a man if we are walking alone or is this also just silly sexism women commit against men? Should we avoid the streets entirely?

I don’t care that you’re female and don’t fear men. You bring it up every time you post here and it’s never been an argument. It’s just a choice you made and personally feel is morally correct. That’s your own choice. It is unreasonable to act as though other women who do not feel the same are wrong or silly to have more caution than you do. I’m gonna need you to just drop that entire argument in future discussions because it’s infuriating and dismissive and does not make any point I can see other than “other women bad but I’m better”

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trans women are not men

You always say this but can’t ever prove it. How can you make this statement as if it’s fact when you can’t prove the fact of it?

If TWAW none of us would be here discussing this or anything else on this sub.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Is it harassment or not? Please just this once answer the questions I ask you? Just one time gb I’m begging you.

If you are questioning someone's presence in a public place where that person is not bothering anyone, than yes. If someone is doing something to make you feel uncomfortable (i.e. getting to close to you) than you can confront them and it's their behavior that's the problem, not their mere presence.

Uhh no changing rooms and toilets are not freely open to the public. It is absolutely not a legal or social norm for a man to waltz into the womens chNging rooms. It’s an offence in many places specifically due to the things males do on those spaces. Cameras, masturbation, spying. It is mathematically proven that males do this far more than females do.

In my state it is also a crime to harass someone for using the restroom. When I was in college there were signs posted outside of each restroom that NY state law prohibits harassing people for using the restroom that matches their gender identity and anyone that does so will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This sign is also posted in public parks and libraries.

So you’re saying that women have absolutely no right whatsoever to express discomfort, fear, or a desire for privacy unless they are inside their own homes? Or can we only speak up once a violation of one of those has already occurred?

Do you mean all women or just cis women? When you're in public, you are not entitled to privacy. There are limited exceptions, like bathroom stalls. It wouldn't be illegal for a business to install cameras in the bathrooms, as long as they are not installing cameras in the stalls where people undress and expose intimate parts. But in a stall you have the right to expect people won't see you. Any place where strangers can see you, you cannot expect privacy.

Is any safeguarding allowed other than not going past the letterbox? Can we for example, cross to the other side of the street from a man if we are walking alone or is this also just silly sexism women commit against men? Should we avoid the streets entirely?

I personally don't care if you cross the street if you see a man. I also have the right to cross the street if I see you.

I don’t care that you’re female and don’t fear men. You bring it up every time you post here and it’s never been an argument. It’s just a choice you made and personally feel is morally correct. That’s your own choice. It is unreasonable to act as though other women who do not feel the same are wrong or silly to have more caution than you do. 

You have every right to feel how you want. I can't control what other people fear. You do not have the right to harass people in a public space who aren't bothering you.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So you believe it is harassment for say, a little old lady to gently say ‘I think you might have the wrong bathroom love!’ To a boy she sees looking at her in the womens changing room where she is half nude?

A man is at the sink of the toilets taking photos of himself and a woman is asking him to please stop using a camera in a private space. Harassment or not?

It’s odd that you assume women are going to immediately harass someone not approach the situation like a functional adult.

What do you think harassment is?

Is it harassment to tell someone to fuck off and kill themselves if you notice they took a second glance at you? If so men harass me in the womens room not the other way around.

Is it harassment to go deliberately linger around someone that you are aware is frightened of you?

Is it harassment to not correctly guess that a random man would prefer to be perceived as a female and to address him as a man?

Is it harassment to say “excuse me but I am uncomfortable” and to then leave?

I genuinely have no idea what you think harassment is tbh.

Once again gb, can you answer the question instead of dismissing it as “that’s just ur opinion lul”

Should women have any safeguards in public? Should women simply stay indoors if any safeguarding we do is harassment according to you? I’m not asking a wishywashy can we please. I’m asking you to definitely state yes or no, should women just stay home or if women should be allowed to safeguard themselves.

If you don’t care if I and other women want to avoid men, why do you make such a point to always mention how you don’t do that and always have some example of another woman doing it being bad?

Seems like you absolutely do care because you have negative ideas or feelings towards women who do not share what appears to be an unwavering trust that sexed abuse is a lie we made up.

You cannot be unaware that I have never included transwomen when using the word women. If I am referring to transwomen I will say transwomen or men so as to be accurate and clear.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

So you believe it is harassment for say, a little old lady to gently say ‘I think you might have the wrong bathroom love!’ To a boy she sees looking at her in the womens changing room where she is half nude?

I don't believe that’s harassment. But if the man says he is in the right place and the woman keeps pressing him then yes that would be harassment. Here is a post from the old GC where poster harass a trans woman in the restroom.

https://archive.ph/IPJI4#selection-2051.0-2058.0

Was shamed last night for asking why there was a man in the women’s restroom.

I heard the voice of a man through the stall door at a bar last night and was taken aback. Why was there a man in the women’s restroom??? I asked why he was in there and was yelled at by him and his friend for misgendering him. We’re being shamed in our own restrooms now for legitimate questions of why a male voice would be heard in the women’s restroom. I’m so angry.

That is an example of harassment. One person even commented "The bar owner should step up against aggressive behaviour." even though no one was being aggressive per the OP.

A man is at the sink of the toilets taking photos of himself and a woman is asking him to please stop using a camera in a private space. Harassment or not?

Cis women also take photos of themselves in public restroom mirrors. I haven't seen it in person, but I have seen Facebook photos of what is obviously a public bathroom. If cis women can do it, other groups can also.

Is it harassment to tell someone to fuck off and kill themselves if you notice they took a second glance at you? If so men harass me in the womens room not the other way around.

Men tell you to fuck off and kill yourself? I’m sorry you experience this. I also glance at people when I'm out on the street and no one has done this to me. I wonder why. I wouldn't say it's harassment unless they are doing it in a way where you feel like you must leave the area.

Is it harassment to go deliberately linger around someone that you are aware is frightened of you?

Depends on the context.

Is it harassment to not correctly guess that a random man would prefer to be perceived as a female and to address him as a man?

Trans women are not men. I will use pronouns based on a person’s appearance. If someone tells me to use different pronouns, I will be happy to. I think it's rude to delicately not use someone’s pronouns.

Is it harassment to say “excuse me but I am uncomfortable” and to then leave?

No. You want to leave then leave. I also have the right to do this when I see you and it's not harassment.

Should women have any safeguards in public?

Everyone should have safeguards in public. It's not specific to women. I personally keep my belongings to myself so no one steals them or robs me. When I sell something online to a stranger we always meet in a public place, which has always been the local library because they have staff and security. I would never meet a stranger from the internet in a private place.

That said, if the "safeguards" you are referring to are "only X group of random strangers are allowed in this place but not Y group of random strangers" then no.

If you don’t care if I and other women want to avoid men, why do you make such a point to always mention how you don’t do that and always have some example of another woman doing it being bad?

If you want to avoid men, fine. If you want to run away when you see a man, fine. But you don't have the right to ask a man to leave a place that is open to the PUBLIC.

You cannot be unaware that I have never included transwomen when using the word women. If I am referring to transwomen I will say transwomen or men so as to be accurate and clear.

I guess I speak a different language than you but when I hear women I think all women, cis and trans. That's how I use the term myself. Sometimes I use the term women to refer to people who outwardly present as woman, regardless of their birth sex or how they identify when I'm talking about sexual harassment, etc.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So the man in the womens room yelled at her but she’s harassing him because she correctly points out he doesn’t belong there?

Interesting.

I’m not asking if women take selfies too. I’m asking if it harassment to ask a man to stop using his camera in the womens toilets. Yes or no gb, that’s all you need to say.

You think I antagonised the insecure man who knew damn well he didn’t belong on the womens toilets? I harassed him into saying “fuck off and kill yourself” to me and your reasoning for assuming this is because, in entirely different situations, it isn’t happening to you?

Did you really think that was any sort of answer to the question gb?

What makes the changing room legally accessible only to women a public place men can freely use? Is it just that you personally think that all gates are inherently bad and should not be kept? Or is it specifically women who absolutely may not have anything to protect them from the fifty percent of the population that commits over eighty percent of all crimes against women? What justifies accepting additional physical risk to women to protect men from an emotional insult?

I don’t care that you choose to call men women. Just don’t assume other people are going to do it.

Also just fyi but the whole “I lock my doors! I hold onto my purse! I don’t let strangers in my house!” Is heading towards the same rhetoric victim blamers use. Careful there.

Could you please answer whether or not women who do need safeguarding because they understand crime rates and risks should just stay at home or not.