Identity

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

I can’t speak for peaking but as far as the feeling wrong it’s hard to articulate, I just knew.

Like when someone moves a piece of furniture after a decade and the next time you walk In the room it just feels wrong.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I guess what I don’t get is that, I get moving furniture and that throwing off the way the room feels- but your “furniture” wasn’t ever moved when you felt wrong. If you started out life as a female person, somehow changed to male and then felt out of place- I get that. But you started out in the place of discomfort without any frame of reference for how it feels to be in the other position (still using the furniture analogy, it’s not going well for me lol).

That’s what my thing always is- I absolutely understand feeling discomfort, I even understand wanting to be the opposite sex/gender, even understand the hormones and possible surgery to present as the opposite sex/gender- I do not and can not understand the leap to claiming to actually be or identify with/as something you just literally have not ever inhabited to understand in any real way. Even post transition, trans people will never know what it truly feels like to be the opposite sex/gender no matter how they are perceived/treated, because they will always factually be the sex they were born and will only be able to view life through that lens. Meaning, even if you (hypothetical you, not you) look female, you’re still a male person who looks female and that is what you’re experiencing- not actually being female and experiencing being female. That difference matters in a lot of ways and for a lot of reasons. And I think that the inability of TW to understand that significant difference is the root of a lot of the growing animosity and the drop in support.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I was just trying to communicate that feeing of wrongness. It’s that but 24/7 for whole pieces of your body. I’m not saying it’s caused the same way just that it’s the closest analogue I have for the feeing that I can express.

As to the rest, I know what feels bad and what feels right. I do think of myself as a woman but even if i didn’t, can you fathom the terrible self esteem required to define yourself as an imposter deserving of lesser treatment? That’s essentially what you are asking of us. Consider ourselves imposters and accept that we should treated as imposters. Surely you see how no person would want that for themselves.

[–]kwallio 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think for many people the feeling of wrongness that you feel doesn't necessarily mean that you are something else. Being or feeling wrong doesn't logically progress to "and that meant I'm something else". You can feel all sorts of feelings about your body without necessarily making the leap to "and therefore I'm something else". I don't get that leap also, like lovesloan says despite everything you don't really understand what its like to be a female.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Im not asking you to accept lesser treatment.

Im asking you to respect the needs and rights and differences of the people you found your sense of identity in. How can you mold yourself after a woman’s image and claim to identify as them and then undermine them at every turn?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You are demanding changes that lead to our lesser treatment then pretending we have the power to change that result.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Im demanding female people be respected and treated equally

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You are saying let’s take everything trans women have, then saying it’s our responsibility to build from the ground but also we can’t do anything we did before.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Not everything TW have, just the things they stole from women.

Literally every single marginalized group to ever exist had to build from the ground up. Including women. You absolutely should not be allowed to undo our rights that we actually had the tenacity to fight for for your benefit.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Let me ask you a question. What’s one thing trans women have that natal women don’t? And not men in general. Trans women specifically? What’s one thing we have that wasn’t built by arguing companship and attacking to a women’s equivalent?

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Details vary depending on country or region, but the following are some of things males who identify as trans have gained for themselves (although some of these things apply to females who identify as trans, too):

Being able to able to falsify their documents with the approval of the State.

Distorting statistics because some males are counted as women now.

Newspapers lying about "trans" issues in the form of "prefered pronouns", "inclusive language" or pseudoscientific beliefs like "sex is a spectrum" or "puberty blockers are reversibles".

Accessing formerly women-only spaces like toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, refuges, prisons, etcetera. All of this without any regard on what women think of this or the harm many women have suffered on the hands of males who identify as trans as consequence of those "inclusive" policies.

Getting mediocre male athletes in the top levels of women's sports just because said males claim to be "women" without any regards on fairness or safety for actual women.

Forcing other people to lie in the form of "prefered pronouns" or "inclusive language" when talking about males who identify as trans, even when said males are not present. Punishing people who refused to play along with this.

Convincing everyone that not respecting someone's identity (even if said identity has not basis on reality) is an unforgiveable sin. All the while males who identify as trans can say literally anything without any consequence.

Forcing women to accept we're a nothing more than a bunch of stereotypes. Forcing women to pretend there is not any difference between women and males who claim to be "women".

Using dehumanizing language to refer to women in the name of "inclusion".

Forcing people to pretend biology doesn't matter and that sex is a spectrum or a social construct.

Being able to threath or, in some cases, physically assault dissenting women without any consequences while pretending this is not typical male violence against women.

Getting your self-diagnose recognized by proffessionals and having access to exogenous hormones and cosmetics surgeries on demand. In some places this must be provided for free by public or private health systems. All of this despite there is no solid evidence "medical transition" improves mental health at all.

Banning any research they don't like.

Banning any treatment that doesn't affir theirm "identities".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Im not sure why this matters? The point is still that it’s wrong to force yourself into a group you literally are not and can not be a part of? Even if your point is that your whole movement is based on associating yourself with female people- that’s not right and causes issues for females.

You have the ability to force your way into our spaces and sports… that’s pretty huge. You have the ability to falsify legal documents…

And why are you asking me questions when you refuse to answer mine?