GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces?

submitted by womanual from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

As long we're talking about spaces where sex matters because of privacy, health care, sports or dating, yes. For other type of settings, I'm not willing to say are entitled to them because men likely may turn our arguments upside down to bar women from the public sphere.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I understood the question to be only to a narrow range of circumstances, and that's why I said yes. I'd add that males should be able to have separate support groups too for problems specific to males such as prostate cancer or erectile dysfunction - or for

In other types of settings, the courts in the US have been very clear that neither sex can be barred from the public sphere - and that even in the case of private clubs, sometimes excluding females constitutes illegal discrimination.

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Prostate cancer and erectile dysfunction are something only males can have. But males have specific spaces and groups for them for issues that are not male specific. For example, "My Brother's Keeper" is a program started by Obama to pair young men of color with mentors. Why don't we have the same program for young women of color? Women experience more discrimination than men, and honestly, what do men of color need that women of color don't? I am a WOC, so I face double discrimination for being a woman and a POC. People think WOC have it easier than men of color, but it's the opposite. It would be like having a program for straight kids but not for LGB kids. You can have a program for LGB kids as LGB people are a marginalized group, but straight people are not a marginalized so straight that's why schools don't have straight clubs like they have LGB clubs. So why not just open this program to young women of color? I would be OK if this program was only available to girls, because females are marginalized thus have specific needs that males don't, not the other way around.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Whilst it's true only males can have prostate cancer, I imagine it won't be long before some transmen want to join erectile dysfunction support groups. Just like some of the young ones are now demanding they be included in gay male spheres like bath houses and gay men's beauty pageants, and are also saying it's their right to slag off gay men with homophobic slurs.

Also, in my comment that I forgot to finish, I meant to add I think support groups solely for boys and men are often appropriate too, especially around issues like CSA, substance addictions, sex and porn addiction, fatherhood, divorce support, and helping each other stem their tendencies toward male violence, anger, sex offending, paraphilias and so on. I know a lot of men who in first coming to terms with the CSA they had suffered only felt comfortable disclosing in the company of other males. Later, they could discuss it in mixed company, but not initially.

I get what Obama was trying to do with "My Brother's Keeper," but I agree that he was extremely sexist in setting it up/embracing it without doing something analogous for girls and women. Not cool for a POTUS to be so biased. But despite having two daughters, Obama really seemed to have no concern for girls and women and our rights more generally. Which is why he used the power of the presidency to issue executive orders single-handedly eliminating the right of girls and women's attending US schools to female-only sports and to female-only locker rooms and toilets.

As for programs for LGB kids in schools, my impression is that now most programs are for LGBTQ students, not for gay, lesbian and bi students - and of course they're filled with enbies, kids who claim to be trans as well as to have other newfangled gender identities, along with kids who think having a quirky haircut is on the same plane as being homosexual. Also, in some places it's so popular to be part of the "alphabet people" that the kids who are feeling left out and marginalized are the straights.

I think people can be marginalized and disadvantaged in a variety of different ways. Girls and women across the board are put at a disadvantage because of our sex, or rather because of male attitudes towards our sex and the way society and culture have formed around those attitudes. But just as all girls and women are not on an equal footing with one another because sex is only one axis of prejudice and discrimination, not all boys and men are on the same plane as one another either. Boys and men can be disadvantaged compared to other boys and men - and to some girls and women - due to disabilities, poverty, race, sexual orientation, lack of education, family troubles, CAEs, etc. Also, I think in these sorts of convos, current social class as well as the social class of one's family of origin going back generations - not just current household income - is a huge factor that doesn't get enough attention.

[–]womanual[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Whilst it's true only males can have prostate cancer, I imagine it won't be long before some transmen want to join erectile dysfunction support groups. Just like some of the young ones are now demanding they be included in gay male spheres like bath houses and gay men's beauty pageants, and are also saying it's their right to slag off gay men with homophobic slurs.

Transmen are socialized female, so it's unlikely they will have a big impact on men's overall well being.

Also, in my comment that I forgot to finish, I meant to add I think support groups solely for boys and men are often appropriate too, especially around issues like CSA, substance addictions, sex and porn addiction, fatherhood, divorce support, and helping each other stem their tendencies toward male violence, anger, sex offending, paraphilias and so on. I know a lot of men who in first coming to terms with the CSA they had suffered only felt comfortable disclosing in the company of other males. Later, they could discuss it in mixed company, but not initially.

Why would a man have issues with a woman hearing his story? 99% chance his abuser was another male, and it's unlikely the woman will be pornsick unlike a male listener.

I get what Obama was trying to do with "My Brother's Keeper," but I agree that he was extremely sexist in setting it up/embracing it without doing something analogous for girls and women.

My point is males do not need a program like that just for them. You might as well have a program for straight kids, or able-bodied kids, or kids who weren't victims of natural disasters.

Girls and women across the board are put at a disadvantage because of our sex, or rather because of male attitudes towards our sex and the way society and culture have formed around those attitudes.

Exactly! And their attitudes about our sex will not change just because women stop using their bathrooms.

Boys and men can be disadvantaged compared to other boys and men - and to some girls and women - due to disabilities, poverty, race, sexual orientation, lack of education, family troubles, CAEs, etc. Also, I think in these sorts of convos, current social class as well as the social class of one's family of origin going back generations - not just current household income - is a huge factor that doesn't get enough attention.

Yes, but boys are not disadvantaged due to their sex and that's the point.

[–]slushpilot 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't actually know the "My Brother's Keeper" program but just by the name it sounds like it was designed to keep misguided and frustrated young men from falling into gangs. I could be wrong but I don't think that has much to do with who experiences more discrimination, but with who ends up jailed or shot. (A classic scene by the way.)

There is no shortage of organizations I know of that are specifically oriented around helping women, and black women especially, to overcome discrimination and break through into spaces where they're not commonly represented. Just 3 that I found off the cuff right now:

I know you were talking about Obama, but there's all kinds of stuff out there now. Maybe it takes a program for one group to make more programs for other groups to follow as an example. Don't look to the past, look at what's possible now.

You can have a program for LGB kids as LGB people are a marginalized group

I really wish there was a club for oddball teens who weren't really into sports and had some nerdy interests when I was growing up. I honestly believe a lot of kids calling themselves "enby" or "queer" these days are just doing it because they don't fit in anywhere else, and that's where all their friends are. There really isn't another program for the weird ones. And if these are just kids, why are programs like this specifically oriented around sexuality? (It doesn't matter to me what kind of sexuality; I just think it's a little weird to promote, it sounds like hey kids come join the school's sex club!)

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There is no shortage of organizations I know of that are specifically oriented around helping women, and black women especially, to overcome discrimination and break through into spaces where they're not commonly represented.

But we don't need organizations specifically oriented around helping men, because men are already represented in almost every professional space.

[–]slushpilot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But we don't need organizations specifically oriented around helping men

No we don't, and I'm not suggesting that either.

[–]womanual[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not willing to say are entitled to them because men likely may turn our arguments upside down to bar women from the public sphere.

They can whine all they want, but in the end it's not the same thing.

Take the n-word for instance. The n-word has a long racist history. Many Black people reclaimed the word, and there is even a debate in the black community about whether the word should be reclaimed. But no matter what black people are doing, white people cannot say the n-word or have a say in the conversation about reclaiming the n-word. Some white people (and non-black POC) think it's not fair black people can say the n-word but they can't. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't say the n-word. The same reason why the n-word is racist but cracker isn't. The same reason we have a women's month but not a men's month. The same reason we have a LGB pride parade but not a straight pride parade. The same reason there is no such thing as "reverse racism" or "reverse sexism."

Men can cry me a river if they have a problem with it. But honestly after years of being sexualized, objectified and patronized by men I don't give two shits about what they think. You have a different opinion, and that's OK. But I hope men don't get the same legal protections women get when it comes to their spaces. Gavin Grimm should have been allowed to use boy's facilities. Men simply don't need the protections that women do. And that is the fault of men, as they are the ones raping and beating women. Women don't do these things systematically to men, and there is not a single case on the news of a woman raping an adult man.