Thoughts on this thread?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from (ovarit.com)

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

Ssri discontinuation is a serious issue with measurable physical effects as well as psychological distress.

I agree with GB on this. How does stopping T not also cause both those things? It doesn’t mean you have to like female people taking it, but that is how it is for them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think it's irresponsible to conflate SSRIs with factory-made exogenous cross-sex sex hormones.

But more to the point: If female people taking exogenous T stop taking it & they still have their ovaries, their ovaries should start functioning again once the exogenous T is out of their systems.

Also, why the glaring double standard? Millions of menopausal, post-menopausal & post-oophorectomy women like me were suddenly forced off our HRT after the WHI study results were published in 2002. The HRT I was on was back then was Estratest, a combo of estrogen & testosterone that got pulled off the market entirely.

No one today seems to give a shit about what women - bog standard biological women of the birthing kind - of my age & following generations went through or are now experiencing nearly 20 years later.

The outsized sympathy automatically given to people with "gender dysphoria" by those who give not a flying fuck what their mothers, grandmums, aunts & so on have gone through blows my mind. Sorry, this does not come off to me as "klnd."

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hi MT! I certainly don’t mean to conflate them in every way, but for the two things that Houseplant mentioned I just don’t see how it is that different. You are right that their body might start producing again if they haven’t had an oophorectomy, but we don’t really know that and I don’t know if long term usage damages their body’s ability to do that.

I’m completely with you on women needing better access to HRT and I certainly don’t mean to indicate I care more trans people. It was just the topic being discussed. Women like you should be given the treatment you need and I’m sorry it hasn’t been that way.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My comment wasn't directed at you personally, peakingatthemoment. It was directed to the general attitude of trans-identified people & their allies today & in recent years.

The physical & mental health problems that women go through coz of the hormonal fluctuations & sudden hormone floods, drops & deprivations we experience in the course of our menstrual cycles, during pregnancy, after childbirth, when weaning, during menopause & when aging & in our elderly years seem not to matter at all to most people who identify as & ally with trans people.

You are a sweetheart. But I have never seen or heard any trans-identified persons on any platform acknowledge the hormone issues that girls, women & their own mothers face. However, I have seen & heard many trans-identified people claim that if a person is female & "cis," then getting prescriptions for exogenous hormones is a piece of cake.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I do care what was done to menopausal women and I also care about the terrible side effects of SSRIs, the difficulty getting off them, and the fact they may impact generations when they do not perform better than placebos and are based on pseudoscience. I also care that the industry disproportionately damages women.

I cannot get over people critiquing the poor science and treatment around gender identity while propping up psychiatry. Furthermore these issues are not entirely separate.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reminded me this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX51BdZ6Nws

It is third time I am hearing about something like that - one time it was HRT during hard-going menopause, and it is always women needing to wait years for a surgery that can save their lives or help to remove pain, while cosmetic surgery for transmen and transwomen is much higher priority than well-being of women, when the treatment is exactly the same.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Testosterone stopping does not have a discontinuation syndrome that can cause things like mania, brain zaps, or refractory depression.

Discontinued growth of the clitoris and less hair loss is not comparable. The depression is not caused by the discontinuation so much as no longer getting desired cosmetic effects. It’s closer to having fillers removed than an actual chemically needed treatment.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I mean, I guess you can say in certain circumstances there won’t be major physical issues (assuming they haven’t had an oophorectomy and their body can still produce hormones naturally), but I don’t see how you can say their won’t be mental issues whether from missing physical changes or other reasons. If they have had an oophoretectomy, they need hormones of some kind to stay physically healthy too. You can still not like it and be honest about that I feel like.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I am being honest. The psychological distress is over cosmetic changes. It’s nothing like an organic depression, or a malfunctioning pancreas.

discontinuation is not dangerous the way benzodiazepine discontinuation is. If a woman has had an oophorectomy her hormone replacement therapy would not involve taking male doses of testosterone. It would require replacing her NECESSARY hormones.

Male doses of testosterone in females are not medically necessary. Cosmetic changes to ease unhappiness is not a medical necessity.

Their mental distress can be treated by means other than by testosterone if we stopped acting like self acceptance and rejection of gender is somehow a form of torture. People might respond to therapy if they aren’t sold the idea that transitioning is the only answer.

Hormones for transitioning are nothing like necessary medication.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I’m not trying to say T is medically necessary as a treatment, but it does have those same effects you mentioned earlier to SSRIs. All cross-sex hormones are medically damaging, at least to certain parts of our bodies, in the quantities trans people take them if we are being honest. It doesn’t mean that trans person won’t experience negative physical or mental effects from their standpoint though if you stop them.

Also, how is depression from gender dysphoria not organic?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Because dysphoria is socially enforced via gender norms. Depression is not.

They may suffer negative effects but those effects are withdrawal from a medically unnecessary drug. It’s closer to detoxing from recreational drugs than it is to a physically needed treatment. That’s the difference I’m trying to get across.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Because dysphoria is socially enforced via gender norms.

I don’t understand this statement. Maybe you are saying dysphoria can’t be because of social aspects, but I don’t think that’s how we judge depression, is it? I feel like it’s wrong to say depression from gender dysphoria isn’t really depression. I’ve never heard anyone say that before.

Totally agree with everything else you said.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s depression absolutely, but it’s depression with a recognisable cause. That cause can be treated without drugs.

Organic depression does not have any identifiable cause. There is no causative factor that can be removed or treated.

Gender dysphoria would reasonably not be as severe if we did not as a society turn around and reinvest in old fashioned gender norms and homophobia. If kids who displayed gnc preferences were taught that it’s normal and not a sign of being trans, for example.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t know if we know totally what causes gender dysphoria, but I understand what you mean about it being different than depression without a known cause. Thanks for clarifying! I’m glad you weren’t saying it’s not real depression.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh god no, I totally believe it’s an awful thing for anyone to endure and there is likely some biological mechanism causing a predisposition to it.