GC: What are your arguments against "lesbians and trans men are men in women's bodies" and "gay men and trans women are women in men's bodies"?

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

True, there's no such thing as a "male brain" or "female brain", but a commonality in early-onset transsexualism is a tendency for the body to develop in a manner more similarly towards that of the opposite sex (the sex itself not actually changing, but development skews in that direction).

I don’t feel like there is any evidence for this. I’ve heard it in a bunch in adult trans peoples narratives, but it usually seems like revision to me. It makes sense for trans people to want to tell a story that affirms how they see themselves currently and saying you had naturally cross-sex features or development, might make you feel more valid in some way. I’m super sympathetic if it helps the person cope in life, but there isn’t any evidence that it’s actually happening.

Also, how you are using early-onset? Every trans person basically says they knew since they were very young so, unless you are speaking about transition age, it’s not really a distinct group. Are you talking about childhood transition? Often times someone may have not experienced a complete puberty if they began medical transition, so it makes sense to say there is a difference because of medical intervention.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t feel like there is any evidence for this. I’ve heard it in a bunch in adult trans peoples narratives, but it usually seems like revision to me. It makes sense for trans people to want to tell a story that affirms how they see themselves currently and saying you had naturally cross-sex features or development, might make you feel more valid in some way. I’m super sympathetic if it helps the person cope in life, but there isn’t any evidence that it’s actually happening.

You might be right, Peaking. Much of what we know is based on self-reporting which is hardly scientific. I'll admit I'm not sure how much research is based on interpretation of self-reporting, and how much is based on objective observation.

how you are using early-onset? Every trans person basically says they knew since they were very young so, unless you are speaking about transition age, it’s not really a distinct group. Are you talking about childhood transition? Often times someone may have not experienced a complete puberty if they began medical transition, so it makes sense to say there is a difference because of medical intervention.

I'm probably conflating things by trying to simplify by combining different conceptualizations and typologies by different researchers for simplicity's sake since often there seems to be dual etiologies in each of the more popular schools of thought (primary vs secondary transsexualism, early-onset vs late-onset transsexualism, homosexual transsexualism vs autogynephilia). That's not really being very articulate of me, I apologize for that. I'm trying to speak of childhood cross-sex identification that persists into adulthood.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for explaining!

I like primary vs secondary transsexual and other ideas like that, but it’s hard to use them reliably with self-report from trans adults I feel like. They aren’t neutral and people want to be part of the better categories so they will form there experiences around that. Like, we don’t see some large numbers of TW talking openly about their autogynephilia, even though it super, super common based on all the studies I feel like. It used to be the same way with gynephilia too. Like all TW would say they liked men, but you’d get to know them and find out they weren’t really that way after all (often in very uncomfortable ways...😬). No need to apologize for anything.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Very true, no one wants to be pariah, probably even more so when they're already part of a group that isn't widely welcomed with open arms. I'd be curious to do more research and try to better discern what "facts" are merely self-reports, and which ones are objective observation or rooted in scientific study. Do you happen to know if most of those conceptualizations (primary vs secondary, etc.) are more based on objective data than self-reports? I'd like to look it up anyways, just thought you may already have better insight!