GC: What are your arguments against "lesbians and trans men are men in women's bodies" and "gay men and trans women are women in men's bodies"?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

in early-onset transsexualism children tend to develop with physical characteristics that cause them to resemble the opposite sex more, and sometimes this is associated with non-typical endocrine functioning relative to expected outcomes for a given sex. This isn't to refer to just a few characteristics, but rather a totality of physical and physiological development.

I'm speaking about prior to transition. I mean that due to naturally-occurring physiological development that results in a body inherently more resembling the opposite sex early on in life

I'd be very interested to see the scientific sources for the extraordinary claim that some children have "early-onset transsexualism" - and that as a result they undergo natural processes that cause them go through "a totality of physical and physiological development" that results in them having "a body inherently more resembling the of the opposite sex early on life."

Not research papers speculating that this might be so based on looking at the genetic & hormonal profiles of adult trans people & the narratives they tell about their early lives. Research science that comes from documenting & studying the physiology of children who according to their parents, therapists, medical doctors & themselves have been clearly trans since they were pre-schoolers or toddlers.

There are tons of people who fit the bill now - including such publicly trans young people like Jackie Greene, Jazz Jennings, Kai Shippley, Trinity Neal and a host of others who were identified as trans by their parents, gender therapists & doctors as young as age two. Influential gender specialists say that kids like these know they're trans long before they can learn to speak, and that they tell the world that they are trans by doing such things as pulling barrettes out of their hair, unsnapping their onesies and liking to have towels draped over their heads after having a bath. Some parents have even gone so far as to say they knew their kids were trans at birth.

With so many kids like this getting medical treatment for being trans over the last 20 years, certainly every possible physical test that could be safely done on them was performed - such as full genetic testing, MRIs, CBCs, endocrine testing & continued monitoring, bone density tests, testing of lung, kidney, heart, immune function etc - so as to show all the physical traits that they have in common with one another that make them trans, and also to make sure they really are trans before putting them on powerful medications such as puberty blockers & CSH and subjecting them to irreversible major surgeries.

Which raises the question: if there really are children who have "early-onset transsexualism" that is inherently physical in origin, as you say, and these children undergo "naturally-occurring physiological development that results in a body inherently more resembling the opposite sex early on in life," then why is there such a huge push to put all these kids on puberty blockers as early as 8, CSH soon after & to do double mastectomies as early as 13 and surgeries reconfiguring male genitals at 15 and 16? Why not just wait for the bodies of young trans people to undergo the "naturally-occurring physiological development" that you say is characteristic of "early-onset transsexualism"?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think that something like "early-onset transsexualism" is inherently physical in origin, but I think physical development in such a matter is necessary factor if it is to eventually develop. It's likely that many other children may develop physically the same way and never transition; indeed, most children who show cross-sex identification and/or gender dysphoria early in and throughout childhood grow out of it, which makes a good case for waiting to subject them to transitional medical treatments. There shouldn't be a push, but it's there perhaps both out of compassion for children who are seen as suffering, and out of a need for trans adults and anyone who may benefit from affirming that a transgender identity is an immutable, unchangeable, inherent characteristic that's best not to try to change.

It would be erroneous to assume that any child whose development wasn't in line with the standards determined to be typical of a given sex to be assumed that they were going to identify more as the opposite sex, which is what trying to make early conclusions about a child's likelihood of growing up to be trans and deciding to treat it in childhood does.

I'd be very interested to see the scientific sources for the extraordinary claim that some children have "early-onset transsexualism" - and that as a result they undergo natural processes that cause them go through "a totality of physical and physiological development" that results in them having "a body inherently more resembling the of the opposite sex early on life."

Not research papers speculating that this might be so based on looking at the genetic & hormonal profiles of adult trans people & the narratives they tell about their early lives. Research science that comes from documenting & studying the physiology of children who according to their parents, therapists, medical doctors & themselves have been clearly trans since they were pre-schoolers or toddlers.

Fair point and on the nose because it mostly has been retrospective research based on adult case studies, but those research papers are what everyone is making assumptions and conclusions based from--it's where my understanding is coming from, I wasn't even thinking critically there! I suppose if we continue to transition children and adolescents with cross-sex hormones and surgeries that affect development, it's going to be difficult to know if their development or features of their development would have been more similar to that of the opposite sex or if that would have changed at some point, and if so, by how much.