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[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Erotica made by men for other men and by women who have adopted this model is mostly pictorial. You'll never understand human sexuality if you keep viewing everything exclusively through a male lens/gaze and seeing males as the human norm.

1.) if sexual attraction being based primarily on visual cues is purely the "male lens", then what is female initial sexual attraction based on?

2.) as males make up half the human population, the "male lens" would still be a necessary component for a complete conceptualization of human sexuality.

Sounds to me like you don't have a very varied social circle, and that you've had very little in the way of IRL sexual relationships - and perhaps none with female humans.

Most female-attracted men and boys who aren't misogynists and who have healthy view of sexual relations with girls/women and respect for us are not "grossed out by anything having to do with menstruation" like you are. At all. This is true even of young men who've come of age during the age when online porn has been source of what passes for "sex education," and who've been influenced by the extreme misogyny of the internet and the widespread disgust/dissociation towards natural human bodies and their natural processes that gender ideology and a lot of online culture with its penchant for artifice, posing and plastic surgery promotes. Yes, some of these men share your revulsion. But certainly not all. Not even most.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/119625-what-guys-really-think-of-period-sex

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/amp51811/sex-talk-realness-guys-on-period-sex/

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a10039967/period-sex/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/14-men-and-women-get-very-very-real-about-period-sex_n_572cb40ee4b016f378957b12

https://www.essence.com/love/sex-while-menstruating/

Since female people personally gross you out so much, then obviously you wouldn't want to have sex with any, nor should you! It sounds like you're convinced that most men would prefer having sex with a male who has been hormonally and surgically altered to appear somewhat like a member of the opposite sex than with a bona fide female. Which is your prerogative.

But if that's the case, it's silly to set yourself up as authority on human sexual attraction. Fact is, the revulsion you feel towards female human bodies and processes that you assume everyone else must feel too is NOT a universal human sentiment held by all persons of both sexes and all sexualities.

3.) at no point did I state that I am grossed out by menstruation. My statement was, that men in general tend to be grossed out by menstruation. I did not make any statment towards my personal feelings on the matter.

4.) That man tend to have a ngeative view of menstruation has, in fact, been a cross-cultural phenomen, with patriacal societies clearly having significant taboos towards it ( According to anthropologists Thomas Buckley and Alma Gottlieb, cross-cultural study shows that, while taboos about menstruation are nearly universal, and while many of these involve notions of uncleanliness, numerous menstrual traditions "bespeak quite different, even opposite, purposes and meanings."[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_and_menstruation , Many religions have menstruation-related traditions, for example: Islam prohibits sexual contact with women during menstruation in the 2nd chapter of the Quran. Some scholars argue that menstruating women are in a state in which they are unable to maintain wudhu, and are therefore prohibited from touching the Arabic version of the Qur'an. Other biological and involuntary functions such as vomiting, bleeding, sexual intercourse, and going to the bathroom also invalidate one's wudhu.[68] In Judaism, a woman during menstruation is called Niddah and may be banned from certain actions. For example, the Jewish Torah prohibits sexual intercourse with a menstruating woman.[69] In Hinduism, menstruating women are traditionally considered ritually impure and given rules to follow.[70][71] , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation#Society_and_culture)

5.) even if the secondary effects of menstruation do influence the amount of sexual attraction, this clearly is not sufficent to overrule visual factors.

6.) what about women that don't menstruate? Menstruation suppression is a thing, and a significant portion of women do not wish to experience menstruation (With the recent FDA approval of menstrual suppression medications, researchers have begun to shift their focus to the attitudes of American women toward their periods. One study in particular found that 59% of the women they surveyed reported an interest in not menstruating every month. Of these, 1/3 said they were interested in not menstruating at all anymore.[96] , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_and_menstruation#Menstrual_suppression). If the capacity to menstruate were a crucial component of sexual orientation, women who don't menstruate would be entirely unattractive to female attracted people.

Besides, the issue under discussion was not whether people find menstruation or the capacity to menstruate sexually attractive. The issue was your claim that there'd be no way a male human could tell if a potential sex partner of his had the capacity to menstruate. Which I refuted.

my claim was, that sexual attraction, and, by exentsion, sexual orientation is primarily based on "apparent gender" as in, what the person in question perceives to be the other persons sex/gender to be. And menstruation has little to no significance in regards to this, as women that don't menstruate due to birth control or hysterectomy are not suddenly perceived to not be women by their sexual partners.

No, that's a supposition. Many complicated processes have to occur within a human body for the internal sex hormones to be turned into the ectohormones known as pheromones. Also, a male human who takes exogenous estrogen does not have the same hormone profile as a female human.

with the processes in question also controlled by hormones. And post-gonadectomy the hormone levels aimed at by transgender people are the same as in cisgender people of the same gender ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(female-to-male)#Hormone_levels )

Also, the research indicates that women emit particular pheromones during different stages of the ovulation-menstrual cycle, with the ones most attractive to members of the opposite sex occurring at the time of ovulation.

with the changes in phermones also caused by changes in hormones. If a transgender woman wanted, she might as well try to emulate the hormone levels (and therefore phermones) at the time of ovulation. Just permanently.

Pray tell, how is a male, even a male with a surgically constructed pelvic pocket he calls a vagina, going to approximate a female's vaginal secretions? How can he mimic the the pheromones of ovulation, in female breast milk and female urine?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of lesbians and heterosexual men don't decide whether they are attracted to a particular women based on her vaginal secretions, urine or breast milk.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of lesbians and heterosexual men don't decide whether they are attracted to a particular women based on her vaginal secretions, urine or breast milk.

You really don't understand how any of this works, do you? These are not matters we decide or any of us decides.

Sexual attraction is rooted in instincts that arose coz we are members of an animal species that reproduces sexually. As a species with higher intelligence, we humans come up with all sorts of ways to rationalize our sexual orientation, tastes, preferences, behaviors. But what we find sexually attractive is not a product of rational thought. It's a matter of primal, primitive urges and animal instincts that evolution has endowed us with.

3.) at no point did I state that I am grossed out by menstruation. My statement was, that men in general tend to be grossed out by menstruation. I did not make any statment towards my personal feelings on the matter.

Ah, but methinks you have indeed made your personal feelings quite clear.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Sexual attraction is rooted in instincts that arose coz we are members of an animal species that reproduces sexually. As a species with higher intelligence, we humans come up with all sorts of ways to rationalize our sexual orientation, tastes, preferences, behaviors. But what we find sexually attractive is not a product of rational thought. It's a matter of primal, primitive urges and animal instincts that evolution has endowed us with.

precisely. It is not rooted in rational thought, but in primal animalistic instincts. So the abstract knowledge "The person I perceive with my senses to be female/male was born male/female" doesn't measure into sexual attraction. Therefore, sexual orientation is based on apparent gender.

Ah, but methinks you have indeed made your personal feelings quite clear.

I did not. I merely stated what I know about how other people feel about this issue.