QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex?

submitted by SnowAssMan from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

It’s not about approving or disapproving- it’s just an unavoidable truth that you can’t define a word with itself. I don’t know why you take it to what I personally approve of, it’s just fact that your “definition” doesn’t define anything. It’s unclear. It’s not an opinion. You’re literally saying “woman: one of various types of a woman”. That tells us nothing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

It is a set based definition. If you separately define (natal) woman, trans woman, and intersex person, it isn’t self referential. You are stuck on the idea that woman = natal woman and not properly looking at the definition. But we are never going to agree on semantics.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So then we still need a clear separate definition of “natal” women, and it would have to be something that a male can fit into, right?

You can’t say a woman is an adult female human, and then say that a TW is a woman who (we’d need your definition to go here so I can’t even offer anything)- because the word female is not defined by identity or appearance. It’s defined by reproductive class and typical function.

So what’s a natal woman, and how do we then take that definition and tie it together to make a category that includes both natal and trans women, while excluding trans men?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

A “natal” woman is an adult human female that is not transgender.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So a trans woman is what?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

An adult human male who is transgender or an intersex person who identifies as a trans woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

You did it again. You defined trans women as identifying as a trans woman. It doesn’t explain anything.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

No I didn’t I define two distinct groups. 1) adult human males with a certain feature and 2) intersex people with a certain feature. That’s not a self referential definition.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

It’s... right there... you typed it yourself. You said a trans woman identifies as a trans woman. Also intersex people don’t automatically identify as trans so that doesn’t work for them either.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unless you’re separating them and I misread. But it still doesn’t work because how does a male identify as a female reproductive capacity? And you just threw in intersex people to including.

ETA- I reread and j get what you’re saying but I don’t get how being transgender automatically would make a transgender male a woman. There’s no link other than you saying so- there’s no logic behind linking females and males into one group when we are already linked to each other by both being human. You’re just making something up to place specific males in with women because it’s what you want. There seems to be no real basis for it besides your personal desire.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Intersex people who identify as trans women. That means the definition refers to (among other things) certain intersex people. Trans women are adult human males who (x) and intersex people who (y). The object of the definition is two distinct groups that have members which are not trans women therefore it is not a self referential definition.

Intersex people who don’t identify as trans aren’t. That’s why I only included those who do identify as such as trans women expressly in the definition.