Discuss with just facts?

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

Why does only their safety matter as opposed to overall safety?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (33 children)

Why would we consider overall safety if we are talking about a space that is segregated by nature and intent?

Also- overall, males don’t need to access female spaces. So overall safety is considered.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

As Duncan said: "The only safe males in women's toilets/spaces are the ones who will not enter them even if they will be allowed to".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I agree they shouldn’t be in there at all, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen. That’s why I’m saying I’d personally be comfortable if women and girls got to decide what circumstances would need to exist for them to be okay compromising. Ideally we don’t have to compromise at all and none of them have access to female spaces, but I just don’t think that’s going to happen. To me the compromise should be- female spaces remain sex based, and we just accept thst passing TW may use those spaces undetected, but we have the ability to ask an obvious male to leave. It’s sad that women can’t dictate who has entry to our own spaces, but all I meant with tm comment is that because we can’t stop it fully, I’d personally be okay with certain requirements being in place so at least we could stop the majority of it in theory.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

compromising

Why it is WE who need to compromise? Why always women?

To me the compromise should be- female spaces remain sex based, and we just accept thst passing TW may use those spaces undetected, but we have the ability to ask an obvious male to leave.

It is still not a solution, and again imposted on us without our consent, ignoring us in general.

From possible "choices" it is the best one. But when you chose between "the worst", "very bad" and "not too bad" - it is not a choice.

became randomly mad, as it always happens to women, through millenias

I’d personally be okay with certain requirements being in place so at least we could stop the majority of it in theory.

Yeah, anti-safeguarding like in Norway by law (if you ask clearly man to leave, they can sue you to 3 years in jail, and that even can happen with just regular man who is not TW, as they can go after that and in the internet through site change their Self-ID and sue you as TW), or like in "Brenda not a Wolf" child's book that teaches kids to trust creepy guys near the van giving them candies, or like Oxford's university which invites any men inside, so creepy men can easily use that opportunity.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m agreeing with you that we shouldn’t have to compromise lol. I’m saying despite that truth, we most likely will have no choice but to compromise. I’m not saying it’s a solution, I’m saying that’s the best we’d realistically get. I don’t really know of a way that we’d check to ensure everyone is female, but if we uphold the sex based spaces and accept that potentially a rare passing transwoman is going to slip through undetected, that’s a hell of a lot better than what we have now.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t really know of a way that we’d check to ensure everyone is female

Change society in a way that men are not automatically thinking that women should just take their will unquestioned, and where men have enough respect to women to not act like that. But those are just dreams for next hundred years at least.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

If the moral argument is based on safety then overall safety should be the aim not just safety of one subset.

Overall safety pits single occupancy as idea but failing that trans women in women’s spaces because men pose an extreme Danger to them especially in concentration and isolation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Overall safety is considered. You want the specific safety of a small group of males to overpower the safety measures in place for all people overall.

Females are not a subset of their own sex. You just said overall safety should be the aim not just safety of one subset...

Transwomen are the subset (of males, not females/women). This is a blaring contradiction.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Overall safety is maximized by making sure trans women aren’t near men when a comparatively low risk is applied elsewhere. If everyone counts that’s the logical solution.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That’s not what you said lmao. I’ll just leave it alone and let everyone else see how you once again contradicted yourself.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey I just want to say that I think you've put forth some good responses to these questions, and that some people are ignoring the implications of your argument to just focus on the aspects of the situation that matters more to them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Because segregating is just a means to increase the overall safety not a goal in and of itself?

Also it would seem that do to the rate at which trans women are sexually assaulted in prisons. trans women being housed in women's prisons decreases the number of sexual assaults unless we are presuming that more trans women sexually assault than are sexually assaulted which seems unlikely.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

What do y’all think “overall safety” means???

Overall, males don’t need access to female spaces. It is being argued that a small subset of males should be able to access them. This is not overall safety. This is an exception to the safety measures in place to ensure overall safety.

Transwomen can have their own wings in male prisons. I don’t care. Women shouldn’t be forced to be housed with them. Females have rights and I see no justification in stripping females of those rights to accommodate males. That’s misogyny, plain and simple. That’s TW exercising their male privilege. TW are the biggest flex of male privilege I can think of. Transwomen are not women and they are not females. Therefore, the solutions to their problems should not involve females at all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

What do y’all think “overall safety” means???

The safety of everyone?

Overall, males don’t need access to female spaces. It is being argued that a small subset of them should be able to access them. This is not overall safety. This is an exception to the safety measures in place to ensure overall safety.

If a non-rapist would be raped in prison A but not raped in Prison B then irrespective or any other factors, less rapes would happen overall if they were housed in Prison B. Do you disagree?

Transwomen can have their own wings in male prisons. I don’t care.

Perhaps we should just put every prisoner into solitary confinement, after all that's by far the "safest" option.

Females have rights and I see no justification in stripping females of those rights to accommodate males

Which right is being violated?

Transwomen are not women and they are not females. Therefore, the solutions to their problems should not involve females at all.

That's your opinion on a definition. Other people have other definitons

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Females are not safe when spaces are opened up to include males. We have seen instances of women in prison being raped by TW. If there are no transwomen in female prisons- they can’t rape women. Males get raped in prison. It’s shitty. But it’s not specifically a transwoman issue. A lot of different types of males have been raped in male prisons. That’s a male issue. It has nothing to do with females. You can make allowances for any type of male, that’s not going to stop rape in male prisons from happening. You’re asking for TW to be given special privileges that a smaller man who isn’t trans wouldn’t get. It solves no problems for anyone but transwomen, and causes problems for women. So no, less rape won’t be the result- the result is just that a different man will get raped.

Or perhaps we should put men who are deemed at particular risk in their own wings or solitary confinement instead of causing discomfort and increased risk to people who aren’t responsible for the shit that could happen to some males?

The right to be housed without men.

Lmao like I said- definitions are intended to explain things, offer a clear fact based definition of woman that includes males. You can use a different definition all you want. Doesn’t mean it’s accurate or makes sense or that anyone who isn’t a part of your gender cult will accept it. The definitions gc uses are accepted by almost 100% of the world. The narcissism you must possess, to think that because you disagree with what a word means, the meaning we attribute to it must be wrong lol. I didn’t make up the definition, I didn’t discover it. It’s just what these words mean.

I get why people say tras are mras. I can’t imagine being misogynistic enough to think that female rights should be nullified for men.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I'm fine with letting anyone change prisons if it actually increases overall safety, including people whom don't identify as women like gay men. Again though if trans women are more likely to be raped than any one else in Men's Prisons, then moving them to a women's prison would still reduce the number of rapes as people would be marginally less likely to rape the remaining prisoners. Which makes sense as the majority of people in men's prisons are straight men and they respond more to "female" sex characteristics than "male" ones.

Why not put everyone into solitary confinement then, after all then everyone is "safer"?

Well first off they don't have the right to determine legally whom that term entails (something I'm sure many intersex women are thankful for), and second their isn't a general right to be free of the presence of "men".

The percentage of people who subscribe to your definition does not change the fact that definitions are subjective. And if you'd like a term for women that encompasses people whom you'd deem "male", then a woman is someone who instinctually identifies with the group of people who posses a certain range of physical traits (which would include people whom you'd deem male, intersex m/f, or female).

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Lmao this is a waste of time. You and masks are so alike. You twist and cling to semantics and tell yourself what you need to. If I hadn’t just spent all of that time going back and forth with masks, I’d waste the energy on you. As it stands, anything I’d say to you I’ve already said.

I will never understand why transwomen can’t just respect women enough to leave us and our spaces the fuck alone.

PS- trans people aren’t intersex and intersex people have been asking y’all to stop using them in your arguments. Seems y’all can’t respect anyone.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Intersex condition not even proves the point, as it is still not changing the sex from one to another. Especially of people who are transitioning late in life. If you were intersex and "wrongly assigned" - you would be already dead by that time without proper treatment.

AMAB and AFAB are bad termins as well - those were malpractices, often followed by IGM.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Saying that sex is a spectrum is very harming to intersex youth.

Being called "less woman", "less man" or "half man and half woman mutant" (how WPATH called us this week) is really painful and stressful. I'd say dozen times more hurtful than misgendering to transgender people.

It increases cases of IGM and pushes intersex youth (especially girls) to transing - as it is much better feeling as "praised transman" than laughed out as "not fully woman".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Im simply trying to have an exchange of ideas as your post requested. You seem however to only want to cast aspersions and presume bad faith.

Because they're legally our spaces too. In a couple generations though you guys will get over it as you realize your fears are unwarranted.

All the trans intersex people must blow your minds then. Tell me, did it never occur to you that getting any of these policies enacted would affect intersex women as well?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I don’t presume bad faith. I think you don’t consider how people who aren’t trans are affected and are looking out for trans people’s needs. I understand why, it doesn’t change the sense that trans people and the things that they “need” for their safety and happiness are invasive and undermine female rights and needs. As I said, if I hadn’t been going back and forth with masks, I’d have more patience for you. I can only deal with so much misogyny and narcissism in one day. I’m tired of transwomen and their allies acting like women should just roll over and let them take whatever the fuck they claim they need from us. I really just wish it was enough that not all women want to include and share with transwomen. I wish women saying no was enough for men. It’s not, and I’m not surprised. I just don’t have it in me today to be civil and engage anymore. It’s fucking draining. Women and TW have nothing to do with each other and it’s bullshit that women have no choice but to be pushed aside for the needs of transwomen. Transwomen are not women. Women shouldn’t have to shoulder the burden of protecting them or housing them. The only reason TW get away with it is because they are men lol. Men will always get to do whatever they want to women and take whatever they want from women. I just wish y’all would acknowledge that instead of acting like it’s not the case. And I didn’t ask for an exchange of ideas. I asked for facts.