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Why this thread?(self)

15 points14 points17 points submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers

There is a thread on Ovarit titled And then they came for the gay men [comment section is full of TRAs] where they link to and discuss a Reddit thread titled "Just a reminder, it’s not transphobic to not want to fuck or date a guy who has a vagina because that’s a genital preference. However, It is transphobic to not respect that guy and blatantly ignore his gender identity because you think he’s just a woman." In the Reddit thread all or almost all people said not being attracted to or not wanting to date trans people is not transphobic. I know there are trans people who believe not being attracted to/not wanting to date them is transphobic, but this thread isn't one of them. So why attack this thread? Why not pick an example where a trans man is insisting that cis gay men not wanting to date them is transphobic?

all 84 comments

kwallio 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun 3 years ago

This reeks of "I got banned for spewing bullshart on ovarit so I started a new thread here". Why man.

DogeWalker 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Did you read the comments on Ovarit? I think the one at the top sums up the issue at hand:

"Friendly reminder" or "just a reminder" is newspeak for authoritarian brainwashing incoming: comply or be harassed.

It's simply a little bit disturbing to require this sort of approval from any group, and it's even more insulting to people who are exclusively same-sex attracted.

Imagine being a straight man and having gay men repeatedly insist, "It's fine if you choose not to date another man!" Frankly, I find it hard to imagine that happening... because no one is telling straight men that they are "allowed" to not kiss other men if they don't want to. (It's simply assumed that straight men would never be interested in that, so nobody feels the need to explain that they have "permission.")

If that's too much to imagine, then think of going on a first date with someone, and at the beginning of the date, the person says: "Look, it's totally fine if you don't want to fuck me tonight, so don't worry... I won't tell everyone that you are a monster of a person if you don't fuck me tonight, right after this date. So we good?"

Do you feel comfortable after that? Would you feel relieved for the rest of the night, or would you find the insistence off-putting and a bit weird?

divingrightintowork 17 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 5 fun18 insightful - 6 fun 3 years ago

"hey straigt dude, you just haven't tried the right dick yet."

MezozoicGaygay male 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

For some reason I think if they will start advocating this to straight men and not attacking lesbians with this (how many centuries men are attacking lesbians with this?) - then all this would be stopped immidietely, and maybe even outlawed.

divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun 3 years ago

Once upon a time in my woke progressive crowd, at clubs and parties, attractive men would perform acts of homosexuality on each other for the approval and attraction of male attracted woman around them (I know this, I would entice them to kiss each other by saying I would kiss them afterwards and get other attractive woman to encourage this behavior)

I won't be surprised if we see some variation of woman encouraging men to do basically exactly this.. Except it will be heterosexual kissing between two penis people... And reward it by heterosexual kissing between a penis person and a vagina person.

VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun 3 years ago

Sounds like sex swapped reality. The world when without /s hard to understand sarcasm.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun 3 years ago

A straight person is a person who is primarily attracted to the characteristics of the opposite sex. So some men may be attracted to a trans woman who has a penis. He's still straight.

CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

What makes this factual and not merely a popular opinion?

loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

But a penis wouldn’t be a characteristic of the opposite sex in this example...

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

True but she has most of the external characteristics of the opposite sex.

divingrightintowork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

So you support people saying that to men?

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun 3 years ago

If that's too much to imagine, then think of going on a first date with someone, and at the beginning of the date, the person says: "Look, it's totally fine if you don't want to fuck me tonight, so don't worry... I won't tell everyone that you are a monster of a person if you don't fuck me tonight, right after this date. So we good?"

If my first date insisted they had to fuck me tonight, I might say "it's totally fine if you don't want to fuck me tonight" Out of nowhere? No. They're not making these comments out of nowhere, they're making these comments in response to transphobia, and because of the fact that many gay men claimed they will be forced to sleep with trans men. I know there are people who say refusing to sleep with trans people is transphobia, but why pick a thread that's trying to curb such behavior?

DogeWalker 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I know there are people who would not mind being pressured in that way, but why pick only one part of my comment to respond to?

loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I thought you said in your old post that most people agree TWAW/TMAM lol

Anyway, I think the reason it was “attacked” was because there was no real need for it to be posted there in the first place but also, it’s yet another example of trans ideology being forced on people who should be allowed to not have anything to do with trans ideology. That sub gets posts like this all the time as you can see from the comments, they’re probably sick of those posts and want to focus on relevant topics. Clearly, to those men, transmen are not really a relevant topic.

Probably, and this is just a shot in the dark, because it’s a sub for homosexual men. Not homogenderidentity men. Sorry, it seems like homogenderidentity just isn’t taking off the way tras hoped it would.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Trans gay are still gay men, and the right to participate in the sub as much as cis gay men do. So yes cis gay men will have to deal with trans gay men. Now most posts agree you don't have to sleep with anyone for any reason. Though one user (user A) said if a gay man is post-op there is no reason not to date them. User B said people can sleep with whomever they want. User A asks user B if he would reject a gay man who lost his penis due to an injury and he replies yes. User A called user B an asshole. Other than that people respect each others boundaries. You don't want to date fat men, fine. You don't want to date men of a certain race, fine. Though there were a few comments that were transphobic, such as telling a trans dude he doesn't belong in the sub. All the OP asked is for users not to be transphobic. He made it clear you don't have to date or sleep with anyone for any reason. I understand many trans people think not wanting to date/sleep with them is transphobic, but this thread isn't one of them and shouldn't be attacked.

loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Oh! So you’re forcing gay men to accept your concept of gay men and saying they have to deal with them?! Wow. Those men aren’t even allowed to have a space free from transmen, even though they don’t consider them men. Based on your rules?

The reason the thread was “attacked” is because many of not most of the commenters don’t see transmen as men to begin with. So you’re saying that trans people have the right to force entry wherever they see fit based on their ideology. And it’s clear from that thread and many others, including the ones in the links you asked for but never acknowledged, that the majority of gay n don’t include transmen as men or as gay men.

Yet it’s the gc feminists who don’t care about gay men, not you and the transmen infiltrating their spaces when it’s clear they aren’t wanted there by the vast majority.

VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Enforcing "gays must accept this" is just homophobia tbh.

Ah yes...I wonder why gay men feelings does not matter, but transmen feelings do matter? Isn't gay men oppressed too and even evil GC feminists doesn't care about them? I thought we should think about their feelings. I guess not and transmen feelings mean more then...

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Gay trans men are gay men and have every right to participate in that sub. The thread was calling out transphobia, while acknowledging you can sleep with whoever you want and your attractions are not transphobic. If cis gay men have a problem with it, they can create a sub on saidit or start their own website like Ovarit where they can ban whoever they want. Reddit doesn't welcome transphobia.

loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Like I said- you are forcing your ideology on a group of people regardless of how they may feel. They did create their own sub- transmen invaded it. Reddit doesn’t welcome “transphobia”, fine. Then the sub will get banned eventually- because clearly the overall consensus is that transmen aren’t considered men by the majority of that sub. And the gay men will move to a space where they can ban heterosexual women who think they’re gay men, as you said. So nobody needed to be reminded that reddit skews in favor of trans people- we are all well aware. The point is not that reddit allows them to invade other people’s spaces- the point is that the people in the space that was invaded don’t see them as men, let alone gay men. You asked why the post was “attacked”. That’s why.

MezozoicGaygay male 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

They are not, same as masculine women are not gay men. You do realize, that you are doing and saying absolutely the same that our homophobic goverment was doing to "fix" us? Either accept that "very masculine women are men too and unlearn your genital preferences", or go in jail. Nowadays Iran goes even further and not forcing gay men into vaginal sex with "manly females" but transitioning them into transwomen, and the only alternative is death. And even their rhetorics is copy, here it is:

“The government believes that if you are a gay man your soul is that of a woman and you should change your body.”

“This is a way to fight the existence of homosexual people because you change their body and you solve the problem.”

You are using same terminology, same arguments, and trying to enforce same actions on homosexual people as the most conservative countries of the current age and as homophobic countries of the past. Same words, same actions, same rhetorics, same aquisitions. I am old enough to live through different phases of homophobia in countries with homosexuals being outlawed, and I lived in few different countries for a decent amount of time (more than 3 years in each) where homosexuals are outlawed.

Why you do not want to see this and to accept this? It is facts, it is lived experience of thousands, if not millions of homosexual people, especially ones who are living or were livign outside of some European countries and some USA states.

Why do you think that safe spaces for gay men must include not gay men? Why places like "/r/Periods" and '/r/PCOS" must include transwomen too, if they never ever can experience those and suffer from those? Why policing language and not letting people who suffering from it to be able to speak about their problems - and all because someone who can never understand or experience those problems at all?

MezozoicGaygay male 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

They aren't gay by definition, saying otherwise is homophobia and conversion therapy (similar to which was already used in my country of origin just 30 years ago).

[deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

[deleted]

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Playing the devils advocate means I don't agree with the things I say. That is not what I'm doing because everything I state here I genuinely believe in.

CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Why not ask the people in the thread instead of people who aren’t posting there?

FlanJam 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

So this is a thread talking about a thread talking about another thread... thread-ception....

Anyways, looking at the original reddit thread, there seems to be two issues. First, OP called it a "preference", which is the same language homophobes have been using for decades. OP even admitted using "preference" was a mistake.

And second, the main issue is that OP accused r/askgaybros of being transphobic without further explanation. And given the context of all those subs getting banned not too long ago, its understandable why they'd be annoyed at someone coming in and pointing fingers.

As for the ovarit thread, seems like they're just watching the drama unfold.

DistantGlimmer 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

However, It is transphobic to not respect that guy and blatantly ignore his gender identity b

Why? Is it Islamophobic to ignore someone's belief in Allah if I don't share that belief? Isn't the best way to handle this in a pluralistic society to simply not discuss it rather than forcing the non-believer to bow down to the other person's beliefs in the name of "respect". I don't think I should be compelled to show a belief in anyone's gender identity as I do not believe the concept of gender identity itself is a real thing (and I think the belief is harmful to people).

Your implication here is that this is an eminently reasonable position that no one should disagree with but I don't see it that way.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 3 years ago

I also don't believe in the corona virus. If people want to wear masks outside or in a store, fine. But the police will break up large gatherings. Why am I be compelled to practice this religion?

DistantGlimmer 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

No one is compelling you to say you believe in Corona virus. There's an obvious difference between forcing someone to go along with safety regulations for communal benefit and forcing someone to say something they do not believe for the supposed benefit of someone else's feelings.

MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

At last some consistency, as it is science denial everywhere, not just in anatomy aspect.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

All you have to do is acknowledge him as a man and refer to him by his preferred pronouns. That shouldn't be hard to do.

DistantGlimmer 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

It's hard when I don't believe it. You want me to lie about how I see this hypothetical person..

[deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

[deleted]

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Nobody would really fucking care about using the right pronouns for kindness/politeness (a few amount of people really like conflit, most people just mind their own damn business)

GC 99% of the time purposely misgender trans people.

Trans people and people attracted by trans people needs their own spaces, end of the discussion. If LGB took the time to create their own space, it's because it was necessary.

Gay men (cis or trans) are a part of LGB and have every right to participate in the sub. I do acknowledge some spaces are acceptable depending on the point of transition, but this is a broad gay discussion forum and trans men at any point in transition have the right to post there.

But if that makes you feel alive (?) keep trying to force acceptance wich is A) not going to work B) going to have repercussions on LGB people and C) put real T people at risk and create for them ennemies where they had at first allies.

By the same turn gay men can loose allies for being transphobic. I support gay men and fight against homophobia, except transphobic gay men (once again, refusing to date or sleep with anyone for any reason does not count as transphobia).

That's a very dangerous game that scares most of us because we're going to be in the middle of this war, and we can't walk out of homosexuality/bisexuality or our sex by "stop identifying".

No one is saying you can stop identifying. Your gender identity is your gender identity and you can’t control that.

worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I haven't been following the saga that closely, but the sub in question is currently being brigaded by trans activists in an attempt to get them to go full TRA or be banned. Most of the men there aren't having it, but hordes of new people are still posting irrelevant threads about gender identity. They tried the same thing with r/periods, but the mods there shut that down.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

What do you mean by "full TRA"? Acknowledging trans gay men as gay men and treating them equally with cis gay men? They should be doing that anyway. Insist not sleeping with a person is transphobic? That's a no-no.

worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Taking over the sub and making it a trans-focused sub, like they've done with many others.

Once the banwave happened, these brigaders lost their other targets. Most of the men on that sub have no interest in natal females, hence the onslaught of posts trying to get them to focus on trans men.

ISaidWhatISaid 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

It's not like the women who frequent Ovarit really care about gay cis men. Gender critical feminists resisted the idea that transgender men were also being sexually inappropriate, if not outright sexually predatory in some cases, towards gay cis men until they could no longer ignore it, and even after they were presented with several documented examples of trans men sexually harassing cis gay men, the gender critical feminists insisted that it wasn't a big deal because "trans men aren't a threat to gay men the way trans women are a threat to cis women" (as if it's not such a big deal for a gay man to be sexually harassed in general). I have watched a number of radical feminist videos about gay men and read a number of Facebook threads, and the homophobia towards gay men amongst gender critical feminists is palpable. I won't mention her alias here or link to the Youtube video, but I particularly recall a recent video where a young radical feminist claimed that gay men are like the slave-catchers of the patriarchy and that the only reason gay men go into feminine professions like fashion and art direction is so that they can police and enforce femininity amongst women, thus selecting, feminizing and serving up feminine women to their straight male "superiors" in order to be on their good side. It was like this young feminist had swallowed every neocon "gay recruitment" talking point, only in her radical feminist regurgitated version, it was evil gay men recruiting young women for straight men (instead of the old version where the evil gay men recruit young men for themselves). This is just one example of overt homophobia I have come across amongst gender critical feminists, so I am not very impressed by the fact that they now have a thread on their site about gay cis men and transgender men. Gender critical feminists only remembered gay cis men when it was time to weaponize them as part of an anti-trans argument.

MezozoicGaygay male 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

It is mostly because feminism is not really about men. They weren't ignoring it on GC, they just said it is not really their problem to solve, at least not before solving women's problems first. However, transideology is so invasive, that even "all about women" radical feminists are thinking about uniting with gay men against this. And gay men are often not very liking women, especially feminists (so this problem is going both ways).

DogeWalker 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I won't mention her alias here or link to the Youtube video... This is just one example of overt homophobia...

What is one example? You could be making that up for all we know. What video or channel are you talking about?

ISaidWhatISaid 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I can send you the videos I am referring to over DM if you're interested, I am not going to post them here. I can assure you they're real though. The video I am describing here is an actual Youtube video by a young radical feminist who IMO has a lot of internalized homophobia and has internalized a lot of negative stereotypes about gay men.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

You are entirely correct. GC only cares about gay men when they can use gay men to shit on trans people. They do the same thing with trans men. For instance on reddit a trans man started a thread on how some trans women talk over trans men. In response GC in the old sub created a thread titled "TIF’s discuss how badly they are treated by over-sexualized and narcissistic TIM’s". In the thread they misgendered the dude of course, said all trans women are like this, and said to the trans men men don’t care about them and to "come back to your sisters who love you." Yet when trans men similarly complain about GC, GC doesn't take the criticism. When GC responded to that thread, they didn't do it to support the dude, they did it to shit on trans women. Once trans men start asking you use their correct pronouns, instead of defending trans men like they did in that thread, GC will call them narcissistic and delusional. Yes they have stated on Ovarit that asking people to use your preferred pronouns is narcissism. So yes they don't care about gay men until trans people are involved. They only started pretending to care about gay men to insult the trans community.

loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

...

You realize there are gc men, yes?

Also that there are gay gc men?

Also that there are gay gc men that participate in this sub/participated in the old one?

MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 9 fun9 insightful - 8 fun10 insightful - 9 fun 3 years ago

Hey, do not reveal our secrets!

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

You are right. I was specifically referring to GC women and r/gendercritical, but I should have been more specific.

loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

So you’re saying that gc women don’t care about gay men because when you go to a sub that is focused on gc feminism- you don’t see them talking about gay men?

worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Some of us actually care about trans men's health, you know.

I'm not in this to hate on people.

GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

Most GC people have never been trans men, so why not ask trans men themselves what can you do to support their health?

worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun 3 years ago

I care about making sure that adult trans men are accurately informed of the health risks of testosterone and of any surgeries they may elect to have. Beyond that, I want to make sure that they have the same access to reproductive rights as any other natal female person. Anti-abortionists don't care if they're trans. It's not like they'll stop trying to take away access to abortion just because someone identifies as a man instead of a woman. I also want to make sure that minors are protected from irreversible and sterilizing medical procedures until they are of an age to make informed decisions for themselves.