Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

And? I have no idea what you are getting at with this. You said female instead of AFAB, so what? The word "female" still has a meaning, and trans men are female. They don' t change sex through transition, presentation or identification.

The word female has multiple meanings though. A person can be socially female even if they aren't biologically female.

Then I have no clue why people like you are whining about how we are not inclusive enough to make them happy: they don' t want to be included, but you are whining about it?

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men.

Good for them: I think they are wrong.

Society already has established the definition of heterosexuality. Main stream society considers womens attraction to trans men straight.

Those men aren' t straight.

If they weren't straight they would be attracted to men (including all male presenting people), but they aren't.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The word female has multiple meanings though. A person can be socially female even if they aren't biologically female.

So it' s as meaningless as woman, got it.

I am not playing that game with "woman", I definitely am not going to play that game with "female".

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men.

You are entitled to think that. I am not going to stop saying that it does just because you whine about it. Get over it.

Society already has established the definition of heterosexuality. Main stream society considers womens attraction to trans men straight.

Society hasn' t established anything given that whenever I talk about this issue, everyone outside of your ridicoulous woke circles understands immediately what I am talking about and I have to actually explain your position, not mine.

Even if you were right, are you saying that mainstream society is always right and nobody should deviate from that? Because I am not sure you are aware, but every single social movement that gained rights for a discriminated category had to fight mainstream society. Maybe they should have accepted that mainstream society saw women as walking uteruses, black people as slaves and LGBs as deviant subhumans. If mainstream society has established that, then it must be right!!!!

If they weren't straight they would be attracted to men (including all male presenting people), but they aren't.

Nope.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So it' s as meaningless as woman, got it.

I am not playing that game with "woman", I definitely am not going to play that game with "female".

You can say biological female, natal female and AFAB. Though it's not like sexist men have x ray vision to use if you have a prostate or a uterus.

Society hasn' t established anything given that whenever I talk about this issue, everyone outside of your ridicoulous woke circles understands immediately what I am talking about and I have to actually explain your position, not mine.

Most people do understand my position and I have to explain yours. Most people are aware of trans people and believe transitioning makes you the opposite gender.

Even if you were right, are you saying that mainstream society is always right and nobody should deviate from that? Because I am not sure you are aware, but every single social movement that gained rights for a discriminated category had to fight mainstream society. Maybe they should have accepted that mainstream society saw women as walking uteruses, black people as slaves and LGBs as deviant subhumans. If mainstream society has established that, then it must be right!!!!

In your examples people were being discriminated against. No one is being opposed when a woman attracted to men (cis or trans) says she's heterosexual.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You can say biological female, natal female and AFAB.

No thanks. As I said, I don't play that game. Why don' t you say "socially female" instead? SInce you claim that the word has more than one meaning, you should be the one clearing up what meaning you are using.

Most people do understand my position and I have to explain yours. Most people are aware of trans people and believe transitioning makes you the opposite gender.

Most people in your circles definitely share your opinions. Most people in the real World do not.

In your examples people were being discriminated against. No one is being opposed when a woman attracted to men (cis or trans) says she's heterosexual.

And I am not saying they should stop doing it. I am just saying that I do not call women (as in females, meaning people of the female sex, not your ridicoulous definition) attracted to other females straight. Deal with it.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

No thanks. As I said, I don't play that game. Why don' t you say "socially female" instead? SInce you claim that the word has more than one meaning, you should be the one clearing up what meaning you are using.

Most people consider trans women female and trans men male.

Most people in your circles definitely share your opinions. Most people in the real World do not.

Not according to this study.

About half (51%) of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to four in ten (40%) women.

And I am not saying they should stop doing it. I am just saying that I do not call women (as in females, meaning people of the female sex, not your ridicoulous definition) attracted to other females straight. Deal with it.

So people are attracted to prostates, vas deferens and Y chromosomes?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Most people consider trans women female and trans men male.

Nope. And even if they did I couldn' t give a lesser damn. I don' t follow the masses just because they say they are right, I happen to have a mind of my own. I have no clue why "everybody does it" seems like a reasonable thing to say to justify your position.

Not according to this study.

Supporting that doesn' t mean they actually believe that they are the sex they identify as. Furthermore, studies based on opinions are not objective. I too answered a similar question in a study and said that trans people should use the bathroom they prefer: this was when I was ok with playing along with their crap, and even then I didn' t believe that TWAW.

Also, America is the entirety of the World? I will be happy to report that in the medical clinic I work at, which isn' t in America, today I had a conversation on the line of "it' s the woman who carries the baby" and no doctor, nurse or technician there dreamt to say "no, some men do it and some women give their very feminine sperm to create the child".

Plus, according to this study only the 49% of people interviewed considered themselves allies, while the rest are either opposed or have issues with certain situations. In particular, it says that young people are the most uncomfortable with LGBT, which means that they are going to grow up keeping that attitude, and the study says that support keeps dropping.

So people are attracted to prostates, vas deferens and Y chromosomes?

I already answered this question and I won' t repeat myself.

You are wasting my time and I suspect you are the same poster in the old sub who thought that trans men should go to men' s prisons. You are way too far gone to discuss with.

Think whatever you want, I won' t pretend that trans men are men and I won' t respect their stupid identity. I will keep saying that they are included in my feminism like any other woman is, even the ones who have opinions that go against feminism (and for some reasons, they don' t require for me to support them to feel included, nor they require cheerleaders like you to defend them), I will keep using words like "woman" and "female" to describe biology and not stereotypes and social roles (which means that I will keep referring to trans men as women and females). So far, nobody has had issues in understanding me except you and people like you, which means that the only problem I will have in my life is when I have the misfortune of dealing with individuals such as yourself in this sub.

And one of the reasons I will keep doing it is that I don' t want to sound so completely detached from reality as people like you: people like you are the reason why I peaked and loathe trans ideology.

Have a good day.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nope. And even if they did I couldn' t give a lesser damn. I don' t follow the masses just because they say they are right, I happen to have a mind of my own. I have no clue why "everybody does it" seems like a reasonable thing to say to justify your position.

That's actually a good trait to have. I have a mind of my own too.

Supporting that doesn' t mean they actually believe that they are the sex they identify as.

Correct, There should be a study that asks people that.

I already answered this question and I won' t repeat myself.

OK you view women attracted to trans men and men attracted to trans women as bisexual. However, when most people talk about sexual orientation, they mean the gender presentation one is attracted to, not their biology. But you don't care what most of society thinks.

You are wasting my time and I suspect you are the same poster in the old sub who thought that trans men should go to men' s prisons.

No but I know who you're talking about.

I will keep saying that they are included in my feminism like any other woman is, even the ones who have opinions that go against feminism (and for some reasons, they don' t require for me to support them to feel included, nor they require cheerleaders like you to defend them),

OK, keep telling yourself that lie.

So far, nobody has had issues in understanding me except you and people like you, which means that the only problem I will have in my life is when I have the misfortune of dealing with individuals such as yourself in this sub.

Mainstream society doesn't agree with you.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Correct, There should be a study that asks people that.

So you admit that you have no clue what most people think because there is no study that asked that. So that "most people think that trans women are female" was something you took out of your ass. Glad we covered that.

Meanwhile, in the real world, half of the population is right wing and/or religious, and they definitely do not believe that trans people are the gender/sex they claim to be. Add gender critical and radical feminists. Add people who don' t care about gender bullshit and are stuck in the middle ages of biological sex. Add random leftists/centrists who didn' t drink the kool-aid. That makes the majority of the population. All it' s left are TRAs and wokies.

OK you view women attracted to trans men and men attracted to trans women as bisexual. However, when most people talk about sexual orientation, they mean the gender presentation one is attracted to, not their biology.

So why do trans people keep whining that most of them cannot find a partner because their biology/bodies are not what the other person wants? If nobody cared about biology, then one would think that trans people wouldn' t have so many issues. And yet, this says otherwise, not to mention all the navelgazing articles about how trans people are sad because gay men are cock-centric and lesbians are vagina fetishists.

Similarly, if most people respect and accept trans people as their preferred sex/gender, does that mean that you lot can finally stop whining that trans people are the most oppressed category that ever existed and will ever exist? Because if everyone kisses their gender identity' s ass, then they are not discriminated against or mistreated, and we can drop the pretense that they won the victimhood olympics.

Mainstream society doesn't agree with you.

What part of "I don't care about what mainstream society says" or "nobody misunderstands what I say when I talk about sexual orientations" didn't you understand?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So you admit that you have no clue what most people think because there is no study that asked that. So that "most people think that trans women are female" was something you took out of your ass. Glad we covered that.

According to this poll, 51% of people said trans women are female.

Meanwhile, in the real world, half of the population is right wing and/or religious, and they definitely do not believe that trans people are the gender/sex they claim to be. Add gender critical and radical feminists. Add people who don' t care about gender bullshit and are stuck in the middle ages of biological sex. Add random leftists/centrists who didn' t drink the kool-aid. That makes the majority of the population. All it' s left are TRAs and wokies.

In the study I mentioned previously, 47% of Republicans support trans rights. We're not all far left.

So why do trans people keep whining that most of them cannot find a partner because their biology/bodies are not what the other person wants? If nobody cared about biology, then one would think that trans people wouldn' t have so many issues. And yet, this says otherwise, not to mention all the navelgazing articles about how trans people are sad because gay men are cock-centric and lesbians are vagina fetishists.

People can date whoever they want and refuse to date anyone for any reason. No one is owed sex. The study you mentioned said 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men would date a trans person of either binary gender. 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians were trans inclusive in their dating preferences.

Similarly, if most people respect and accept trans people as their preferred sex/gender, does that mean that you lot can finally stop whining that trans people are the most oppressed category that ever existed and will ever exist? Because if everyone kisses their gender identity' s ass, then they are not discriminated against or mistreated, and we can drop the pretense that they won the victimhood olympics.

Just because people accept trans people as their preferred sex/gender, doesn't mean discrimination is over. That's like saying racism was over after segregation ended.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

According to this poll, 51% of people said trans women are female.

Ah, so, now twitter polls are conclusive of what people actually believe and as respectable as official surverys and studies? Great: according to this completely valid poll and this other one most people do not support nonbinary and trans people having rights. And if they don' t believe they should have rights, they don' t believe they are the gender they identify as either.

Not to mention, the writer of that article even says that they were expecting a no, which means that 1) 51% was achieved only among Twitter users, and given that not everyone uses Twitter, it can' t be used an an objective proof of what happens in the real world; 2) that even the one who made that poll can' t believe their luck, and they were asking their followers who very likely share the same mentality as the author: so to make it more clear, the author asked the TWAW brigade if trans women are female, and they were shocked that the answer was yes. Let' s repeat it for even more clarity, out of an audience that proudly shouts that trans women are women, only the 51% of them said that they consider them female; 3) 51% barely qualifies as "win".

Now, before you tell me that since I am posting polls as well so mine are as invalid as yours, I will tell you that I agree completely: I am only posting those studies and polls because you seem to only care about this crap. Because you keep saying that you think with your head, but you obsessively seek the majority to agree with you to justify and validate your opinions.

I don' t believe any study or poll that is based on opinions and feelings, even if they agree with me, because no matter how rigorous the collection of data is, it cannot be objective.

These polls and studies are as valid as the ones that are made for political elections, which means they aren' t in the least.

In the study I mentioned previously, 47% of Republicans support trans rights. We're not all far left.

As I already said, supporting trans rights doesn' t mean they believe trans women are female/women. I support trans rights as well, and I don' t acknowledge or respect trans people' s identity.

People can date whoever they want and refuse to date anyone for any reason. No one is owed sex. The study you mentioned said 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men would date a trans person of either binary gender. 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians were trans inclusive in their dating preferences.

So you completely missed the point? This isn' t a question of being allowed to date, it' s a question of basing sexual orientation on presentation instead of biology. You said most people are attracted to presentation. So why is it that only the 1, 8% of straight women, 3, 3% of straight men, 11, 5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians are willing to date trans people? If presentation is what is important, then most straight men and lesbians should be more than happy to date trans women, and most straight women and gay men would be more than happy to date trans men. And yet, for some unexplainable reason, they aren' t and when they are, they go for biological sex more than their gender identity/presentation. In that study it' s specifically said that the one that collected the data is baffled by the fact that people even answered going against their identification (aka, straight men and lesbians are more willing to date trans men than trans women because, as straight men and lesbians, they are more willing to date females over males. HOW ODD!!!!!!).

Just because people accept trans people as their preferred sex/gender, doesn't mean discrimination is over. That's like saying racism was over after segregation ended.

First of all, nobody of you trans enthusiasts stops at discrimination, you all claim that trans people are the most oppressed category EVER!!!!!!! That trans women can' t even use a man' s bathroom because if they entered there they would be instantly killed (even though I have never even seen anecdotes on the matter, let alone statistics). You enjoy bringing up the ridicoulous idea that trans people are the category that is most killed and abused. If everyone accepts and respects them, then they shouldn' t be so discriminated that they can' t even use a bathroom without being attacked.

Secondly, the discrimination they face is all based on their presentation/gender identity: if everyone accepts them, then they can' t be discriminated over it.

The comparison with racism is, as usual, ridicoulous: nobody has ever said that the end of segregation meant that everyone suddenly started liking and respecting black people, quite the opposite. Nobody even in this current day claims that everyone accepts black people: in fact, the narrative is that white people are all racists and even the most open minded of us still has white privilege and still has preconceptions on black people.

And yet, trans people are completely accepted as their preferred sex and at the same time the most oppressed category ever because nobody takes seriously their identification as their preferred sex.

As I already said, you are full of shit.

Now, as fun as this has been, you are indeed wasting my time, so let' s just agree to disagree and move on. Have a nice day.