Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I mean socially passing trans men are not treated as female

That' s not what you said. You said that trans men are not female.

so it doesn't make sense for GC to include trans men in most of their activism. But we do acknowledge not all sex characteristics can be changed.

If you acknowledge that not all sex characteristics can be changed, then you should understand that those characteristics that can' t be changed and come from female biology are what we focus on when we say we include trans natal females in our activism and why they are female.

Yes, trans women get move visibility than trans men. But trans men on r/FTM have posted anti-GC threads.

Great, then they can stay as far away as they want. We are not forcing them to join us, and we are not forcing them to use whatever right radical feminism fights for.

Yes it's the label for your sexual orientation that changes. As a straight woman I will tell you I'm attracted to pre-transition trans women but not post-transition trans women. This will depend on how far into transition they are.

It' s called "I like men who present as men and don' t like men who present as women".

That's called heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. Being attracted to both sexes is bisexuality.

Aren't most people attracted to gender presentation?

No. Liking someone' s gender presentation is not sexual orientation, it' s a preference. And most people care more about the body of the person who "presents" as one gender or the other than the presentation. That means that a straight man might mistake another man for a woman if he passes well enough and could find him attractive, but the second he learns that the guy in question still has a penis, he' s going to stop being attracted and interested. Unless he' s bisexual.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

That' s not what you said. You said that trans men are not female.

Socially they are not. They are men.

If you acknowledge that not all sex characteristics can be changed, then you should understand that those characteristics that can' t be changed and come from female biology are what we focus on when we say we include trans natal females in our activism and why they are female.

That's like a feminist using albeist slurs and then claiming to include disabled people. I am learning disabled.

Great, then they can stay as far away as they want. We are not forcing them to join us, and we are not forcing them to use whatever right radical feminism fights for.

They do with GC feeling sorry for them and calling them handmaidens.

It' s called "I like men who present as men and don' t like men who present as women".

Which is heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. Being attracted to both sexes is bisexuality.

So people are actually attracted to uterus and prostates and chromosomes and not bodies?

No. Liking someone' s gender presentation is not sexual orientation, it' s a preference. And most people care more about the body of the person who "presents" as one gender or the other than the presentation. That means that a straight man might mistake another man for a woman if he passes well enough and could find him attractive, but the second he learns that the guy in question still has a penis, he' s going to stop being attracted and interested. Unless he' s bisexual.

It is a sexual orientation. By the way I said I am not attracted to vaginas so if he has a vagina I will not date him but am willing to do sexual things with him that don't involve his vagina.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Socially they are not. They are men.

Then you shouldn' t have have used the word "female". I don' t share the idiocy that woman and man are terms that refer to social presentation, but you didn' t use those, you used "female".

You are so full of it it' s ridicoulous.

That's like a feminist using albeist slurs and then claiming to include disabled people. I am learning disabled.

Cool, then those horribly mistreated "men" should stay away from us and should stop, voluntarily, benefit from anything radical feminists and GCers have ever gained for women. That will show us!!!!

They do with GC feeling sorry for them and calling them handmaidens.

They can and should keep doing it . We won' t stop saying that lots of them are transitioning for internalized misogyny or because some of them are handmaiden.

Which is heterosexuality.

No, it' s bisexuality.

So people are actually attracted to uterus and prostates and chromosomes and not bodies?

Bodies are female or male according to their sex. If you get body mods to pretend that you are a member of the other sex, then you might confuse someone if you pass very well. The second a straight man finds out that the "woman" he finds hot has a dick or used to have a dick, however, it' s done.

It is a sexual orientation.

No.

By the way I said I am not attracted to vaginas so if he has a vagina I will not date him but am willing to do sexual things with him that don't involve his vagina.

Still bisexuality.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Then you shouldn' t have have used the word "female". I don' t share the idiocy that woman and man are terms that refer to social presentation, but you didn' t use those, you used "female".

I said female, not assigned female at birth.

Cool, then those horribly mistreated "men" should stay away from us and should stop, voluntarily, benefit from anything radical feminists and GCers have ever gained for women. That will show us!!!!

They did a long time ago. BTW, not all radfems are GC. GC is a branch of radical feminism.

They can and should keep doing it . We won' t stop saying that lots of them are transitioning for internalized misogyny or because some of them are handmaiden.

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men, instead it actively promotes bigotry against trans men.

No, it' s bisexuality.

Most people disagree with you.

Bodies are female or male according to their sex. If you get body mods to pretend that you are a member of the other sex, then you might confuse someone if you pass very well. The second a straight man finds out that the "woman" he finds hot has a dick or used to have a dick, however, it' s done.

I know many straight men who wouldn't do that.

[–]yishengqingwa666 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are laughably ignorant and really quite boring. Goodbye.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So are you.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I said female, not assigned female at birth.

And? I have no idea what you are getting at with this. You said female instead of AFAB, so what? The word "female" still has a meaning, and trans men are female. They don' t change sex through transition, presentation or identification.

They did a long time ago.

Then I have no clue why people like you are whining about how we are not inclusive enough to make them happy: they don' t want to be included, but you are whining about it?

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men, instead it actively promotes bigotry against trans men.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Most people disagree with you.

Good for them: I think they are wrong.

I know many straight men who wouldn't do that.

Those men aren' t straight.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

And? I have no idea what you are getting at with this. You said female instead of AFAB, so what? The word "female" still has a meaning, and trans men are female. They don' t change sex through transition, presentation or identification.

The word female has multiple meanings though. A person can be socially female even if they aren't biologically female.

Then I have no clue why people like you are whining about how we are not inclusive enough to make them happy: they don' t want to be included, but you are whining about it?

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men.

Good for them: I think they are wrong.

Society already has established the definition of heterosexuality. Main stream society considers womens attraction to trans men straight.

Those men aren' t straight.

If they weren't straight they would be attracted to men (including all male presenting people), but they aren't.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The word female has multiple meanings though. A person can be socially female even if they aren't biologically female.

So it' s as meaningless as woman, got it.

I am not playing that game with "woman", I definitely am not going to play that game with "female".

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men.

You are entitled to think that. I am not going to stop saying that it does just because you whine about it. Get over it.

Society already has established the definition of heterosexuality. Main stream society considers womens attraction to trans men straight.

Society hasn' t established anything given that whenever I talk about this issue, everyone outside of your ridicoulous woke circles understands immediately what I am talking about and I have to actually explain your position, not mine.

Even if you were right, are you saying that mainstream society is always right and nobody should deviate from that? Because I am not sure you are aware, but every single social movement that gained rights for a discriminated category had to fight mainstream society. Maybe they should have accepted that mainstream society saw women as walking uteruses, black people as slaves and LGBs as deviant subhumans. If mainstream society has established that, then it must be right!!!!

If they weren't straight they would be attracted to men (including all male presenting people), but they aren't.

Nope.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So it' s as meaningless as woman, got it.

I am not playing that game with "woman", I definitely am not going to play that game with "female".

You can say biological female, natal female and AFAB. Though it's not like sexist men have x ray vision to use if you have a prostate or a uterus.

Society hasn' t established anything given that whenever I talk about this issue, everyone outside of your ridicoulous woke circles understands immediately what I am talking about and I have to actually explain your position, not mine.

Most people do understand my position and I have to explain yours. Most people are aware of trans people and believe transitioning makes you the opposite gender.

Even if you were right, are you saying that mainstream society is always right and nobody should deviate from that? Because I am not sure you are aware, but every single social movement that gained rights for a discriminated category had to fight mainstream society. Maybe they should have accepted that mainstream society saw women as walking uteruses, black people as slaves and LGBs as deviant subhumans. If mainstream society has established that, then it must be right!!!!

In your examples people were being discriminated against. No one is being opposed when a woman attracted to men (cis or trans) says she's heterosexual.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You can say biological female, natal female and AFAB.

No thanks. As I said, I don't play that game. Why don' t you say "socially female" instead? SInce you claim that the word has more than one meaning, you should be the one clearing up what meaning you are using.

Most people do understand my position and I have to explain yours. Most people are aware of trans people and believe transitioning makes you the opposite gender.

Most people in your circles definitely share your opinions. Most people in the real World do not.

In your examples people were being discriminated against. No one is being opposed when a woman attracted to men (cis or trans) says she's heterosexual.

And I am not saying they should stop doing it. I am just saying that I do not call women (as in females, meaning people of the female sex, not your ridicoulous definition) attracted to other females straight. Deal with it.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

No thanks. As I said, I don't play that game. Why don' t you say "socially female" instead? SInce you claim that the word has more than one meaning, you should be the one clearing up what meaning you are using.

Most people consider trans women female and trans men male.

Most people in your circles definitely share your opinions. Most people in the real World do not.

Not according to this study.

About half (51%) of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to four in ten (40%) women.

And I am not saying they should stop doing it. I am just saying that I do not call women (as in females, meaning people of the female sex, not your ridicoulous definition) attracted to other females straight. Deal with it.

So people are attracted to prostates, vas deferens and Y chromosomes?